Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:48 am

GlaringError wrote:Eileen.... in NO WAY do I want you to think that I think this was a suicide.
If in any way I did, I would not bother reading anything about this case.

I also would like to thank you for your comments as to the hanging. You made an excellent point with that previous case, and the point that a longer drop "shoulda, woulda, coulda" caused decapitation.

What do the petichiae say, by the way. I do not know what this means as to how those got there on Rebecca... what causes that?

Here is an autopsy report on a woman that was strangled to death. She was initially presented as a suicide by hanging that was ruled a death by strangulation upon post mortem examination.

The victim had many injuries in common with Rebecca. She had 2 separate ligature marks with the inverted v that would be consistent with hanging. She also had a fractured hyoid bone and thyroid and the cricoid cartilages with petechial hemorrhaging in the oral mucosa of the lips and above the ligature. Those findings were consistent with murder by strangulation. She did not have torn strap muscles.

Is it possible that Rebecca was both strangled and hung maybe from below?

Maybe someone with a medical/scientific aptitude can look at this report and see if there are any important similarities and tell what that might mean.

Eileen, KZ, Hinky in SD??? Could you look at this autopsy and tell what you think? Afro

Copy and paste the link onto your browser if you are not comfortable with clicking on the link.
www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:11 am

I haven't been keeping up with this case word for word, but have basic knowledge of it.

snipped from Wig-o-matic:

Is it possible that Rebecca was both strangled and hung maybe from below?
----------------
This actually is rather interesting. You do mean maybe she was strangled and "hung from below", meaning someone hoisted her dead body up to make it appear as she hung herself?

That's really interesting. I can't wait to see what the others here have to say about that.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Tamta on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:18 am

Julie wrote:I haven't been keeping up with this case word for word, but have basic knowledge of it.

snipped from Wig-o-matic:

Is it possible that Rebecca was both strangled and hung maybe from below?
----------------
This actually is rather interesting. You do mean maybe she was strangled and "hung from below", meaning someone hoisted her dead body up to make it appear as she hung herself?

That's really interesting. I can't wait to see what the others here have to say about that.

I think KZ and another poster a week or so ago reaffirmed that it was a long drop hanging that spoke to her injuries as cited in the ARs.

Search KZs posts in statistics.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:22 am

Thanks Tamta, I'll check those out.
It still sounds interesting though.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:37 am

Julie wrote:Thanks Tamta, I'll check those out.
It still sounds interesting though.

It would be helpful if Eileen, Hinky or KZ could read this autopsy report and tell what they think before you pass judgement. Here's the report again. Afro

www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:50 am

Not passing judgement, I'll read their comments, your link & the old posts. Don't know when, but I will.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Freckles on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:00 am

Eileen at 9:48:
Excellent post.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:35 am

Here's an interesting article on the Martha Moxley murder for those that have the time as it is long.

It would be interesting to those who doubt that money and power can presume to be entitled to special privileges during a murder investigation and how that pans out for the family of the victim when trying to get answers to legitimate questions.

There are also some similar elements regarding the lack of evidence collection. Especially, that the evidence technician was not allowed to take the routine and mandated photographs of the body at the discovery scene.

Also, her pants and underwear were pulled down. This was thought to have been done by the murderer to shame and humiliate the victim.

Like I said it's a long article but for those who have a hard time wrapping their heads around the possibility of cover up and corruption in high places it is well worth the read. Afro

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/moxley/bibli_11.html
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:27 am

GlaringError wrote:Eileen.... in NO WAY do I want you to think that I think this was a suicide.
If in any way I did, I would not bother reading anything about this case.

I also would like to thank you for your comments as to the hanging. You made an excellent point with that previous case, and the point that a longer drop "shoulda, woulda, coulda" caused decapitation.

What do the petichiae say, by the way. I do not know what this means as to how those got there on Rebecca... what causes that?


Here you go, GlaringError. Many of "us" have already discussed this elsewhere, but will post here for reference.
An image is worth a thousand words. Image is hard to read small, but the red dots that look like measles is the petechiae..
Referencing Brilliant Cynic's WS illustration (many thanks Cynic! -- found it on Google so hopefully no copyright issues), note the petechiae as documented in Rebecca's AR:

The face is generally congested. Summarizing location of petechiae on Rebecca's face and neck: orbital ridges; around the eyes, less on the left side of the face between the eye and the ear, many on the upper and lower palpebral conjunctivae, bilaterally; inferior and lateral to the mouth; in both upper and lower portion of the mouth; above the ligature furrow, extending from the chin to the angles of the mandible; below the ligature furrow, just below the angle of the mandible and adjacent to the right thyroid cartilage.

So what is petechiae?
A petechial hemorrhage is a tiny pinpoint red mark that is an important sign of asphyxia caused by some external means of obstructing the airways. They are sometimes also called petechiae. Their presence often indicates a death by manual strangulation, hanging, or smothering… If petechial hemorrhages and facial congestion are present, it is a strong indication of asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death.

The forensic pathologist usually needs a very good light source and maybe even a magnifying glass to detect petechial hemorrhages. They range in size from the size of a speck of dust to around two millimeters and may occur in distinct groups. Often they are seen in the conjunctiva of the eyes and also on the eyelids, especially after hanging. They may also be found elsewhere on the skin of the head and face, such as in the mucous membrane inside the lips and around or behind the ears. When found in a case of suspect hanging, the presence of petechial hemorrhages strongly suggests the victim was hung when still alive. This helps distinguish hangings staged to make a murder look like a suicidal act.
http://www.enotes.com/petechial-hemorrhage-reference/petechial-hemorrhage
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:10 am

Freckles wrote:Eileen at 9:48:
Excellent post.
TY Freckles, but I can't take credit as the body of the comment was written by another.

Both KZ and Hinky's Mimi (correct me if I'm wrong) made excellent comments recently on how nonsensical it has been for those who agree with SDSO conclusions to engage in a battle against any and all who think otherwise.

Aside from the horribly botched investigation and the suspicious circumstances (hey, LE can and does foul up and weird things DO happen), what tips me over the edge is:
1. The attacks against a dead woman's character
2. The attacks and threats by LE and dead woman's boyfriend's lawyers against her family and the family's attorneys
3. The orchestrated intimidation against all those who question the findings.
4. That those who profess their innocence in the wake of public outcry do not come forward and volunteer proof of their innocence.

It is NOT the responsibility of the victim's family's lawyer to disclose what's in the case files to prove their innocence.

In this case, best-that-money-can-buy PR and attorney tactics boomeranged. They insulted the public's intelligence.
Said boyfriend's money spent would have been much better served in assisting his dead girlfriend's family find peace and closure, and in founding a suicide prevention charity IMO.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Freckles on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:10 am

Eileen-
I find it rather strange the only words spoken re Rebecca have been to cast her down. Not a positive word at all. His entire family went mute except to cast down on her. HE was the one who owned the house; HE was the one who left her in charge; HE was the one who supposedly "ran to the gym" where no one saw him just so HE could say HE received a call from her re Max. And HE was the one who used her as a taxi driver, a babysitter, a lover, a friend, etc.. It is all about HIM.

And, HE was the one who played Judas at the last supper. Wherever and whenever that took place. HE knew the night he went to the home to pick up HIS clothing.

This person spent more time AWAY from Max and lied when he said he never left Max' bedside.

All about him, isn't it? Let's all jump through the hoops as HE commands.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Freckles on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:17 am

Eileen;
Clipped-
"If petechial hemorrhages and facial congestion are present, it is a strong indication of asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death."

So Rebecca had both the facial congestion AND petechial hemorrhages PLUS her neck was NOT broken. Strangulation upon hanging seems to be ruled out;
Suicide by hanging is ruled out due to the manner of the hanging and the interior damage that was NOT done at her death. That leaves Rebecca's death a murder, not a suicide.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Freckles on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:18 am

Eileen-
Would you happen to have any pictures of the "hits" or damages done to the head, the forehead? IIRC, there were 4 reported.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:44 am

Here you go Freckles - both illustrations by Cynic at Websleuths.. all credits and thank yous to Cynic.
Rushing to meeting; ITMT these should give pause to ponder...



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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:53 am

KZ wrote:Not a likely scenario, HinkySD, imo, and in the opinion of the ME.

The SCM muscle (left, in particular) in her neck was nearly torn in half. (4 and half inch tear, IIRC.) There was severe damage to other muscles, and the larynx. The strap muscles were torn and hemorrhagic. A drop of only 2-3 feet (or less, if she was standing on a table, as you suggest) would not have that pattern of damage, from what the literature on hanging says.

She appears to have sustained a long drop hanging situation, but without suffering a hangman's fracture, or any vertebral damage at all. Her atlantooccipital junction was intact. And no spinal cord damage.

That could be due to the type and placement of the knot, the force and angle at which she fell, etc.

Thank you, KZ :>

Can you consider something for me?

I've tried to put this into words before, but I'll try again.There is a physical phenomenon that occurs when a person is sleeping/drunk/knocked-out that during an accident they sustain much less injury because their body does not fight the incident. The body goes with the flow, not resisting.

Okay, what I am trying to get at here ............. If Rebecca was conscious when going over her body would have tightened in anticipation of the noose and it could have suffered MORE damage such as breakage etc.

Okay, what I am trying to get at here is........... I don't know how to explain this and I am hoping that you might consider this KZ and share your thoughts. Would Rebecca's neck be less damaged if she were unconcious?
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:26 pm

Anybody wanna read about hangings? If so, here are some tidbits for you!

The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose. If the brass eyelet is positioned under the left angle of the jaw it throws the head backwards, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck, ideally between the C2 & C3 vertebrae, crushing or severing the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. In medical terms this is known as hyperflexion of the neck. The Phrenic nerve which controls the diaphragm emerges between the C3 and C4 vertebrae and thus if the fracture occurs above C4 the person's breathing immediately ceases.
It is only in the last six inches or so of the drop that the physical damage to the neck and vertebrae occur as the rope constricts the neck and the force is applied to the vertebrae. The duration of this part of the process is between 0.02 and 0.03 of a second depending upon the length of drop given. Generally the diameter of the noose is found to have reduced some five to seven inches after the drop.
The accurately measured and worked out drop removed most of the prisoner's physical suffering and made the whole process far less traumatic for the officials.
The drops given by Marwood were usually between 4 and 10 feet, depending on the weight and strength of the prisoner. In the late 19th century, there was a considerable amount of experimentation to determine the exact amount of drop and James Berry, who succeeded Marwood, had several unfortunate experiences. The hanging of Robert Goodale at Norwich on the 30th of November 1885, resulted in complete decapitation by the force of the drop. Moses Shrimpton was very nearly decapitated at Worcester in 1885. Where the drop was inadequate, the prisoner still died of asphyxia and after Goodale, James Berry reduced the drops in two or three subsequent hangings thus failing to break the prisoner’s neck.

Drop tables.
In 1886, Lord Aberdare was commissioned to report into hanging in Britain after various unfortunate incidents. Part of his remit was to devise a standard table of drops. The Committee’s provisional table provided a length of drop to produce a final "striking" force of approximately 1,260 foot pounds of force which combined with the positioning of the noose caused fracture and dislocation of the neck, usually at the 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th cervical vertebrae. This is the classic "hangman's fracture". The length of the drop was worked out by the formula 1,260 ft/lbs divided by the body weight of the prisoner in pounds = drop in feet. For prisoners under 8 stone (112lbs) in weight a reduction in striking force to 1120 foot pounds was recommended.
After further consideration and experimentation the Home Office issued another table of drops in 1892 which were considerably shorter than Aberdare’s provisional ones and resulted in a force of 840 ft/lbs being developed. This was done presumably to avoid the decapitation and near decapitations that had occurred with old table (see above). However there are a number of properly documented instances of substantially longer drops being given during this period.
It will be seen that the drops specified in the 1913 table are longer than those in the 1892 one, as in some cases, the prisoner’s spinal cord had not been severed by the shorter fall. The official execution report on Alfred Stratton, who was hanged at Wandsworth in 1905, records evidence of asphyxia and states that the neck was not broken. This was not unusual at the time. Thus a revised table was issued in 1913, designed to produce a striking force of 1000 ft/lbs. The Home Office issued a rule restricting all drops to between 5 feet and 8 feet 6 inches as this had been found to be an adequate range. The drop was worked out and set to the nearest inch (see below) to ensure the desired outcome. From around 1939 it became customary to add a further nine inches to the drop calculated from the 1913 table.




The weight is that of the clothed prisoner in pounds, the day before execution.
Note 1 pound is 0.454 Kg, 1 foot is 30.5 cm and an inch is 2.5cm.


http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging1.html
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:42 pm

HinkySD - I guess our brash, flustered, up and coming recently promoted medical examiner Lucas was absent from class that day....
winks
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:05 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:Wasn't Nina fingerprinted? I wonder why Adam was not fingerprinted when he apparently had his fingers all over the crime scene. Doesn't that seem like an odd omission? Afro

Yes, it is odd.

What's even MORE ODD is that SDLE said only Rebecca's prints were found! They didn't even come out and say 'Of course, Adam's prints were found on the knife he used to cut down Rebecca.' They didn't come out and say 'Of course, Jonah's prints are everywhere in his own house.' No, no, no, NO! ONLY REBECCA'S PRINTS WERE FOUND!

LE thinks that it helps bolster their lying sick story that RZ was the only one there that night!

Bastards!

(Kinda like Jonah was by his son's bedside B.S. This lie was printed in hundreds and hundreds of articles and makes me SICK everytime I read it!)

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:26 pm

I pray for this woman!

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Julie wrote:Thanks Tamta, I'll check those out.
It still sounds interesting though.

It would be helpful if Eileen, Hinky or KZ could read this autopsy report and tell what they think before you pass judgement. Here's the report again. Afro

www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php

Thank you for the link!

~snipped from AR of muder vicitm that was staged to look like suicide ~

Removal of the belt revealed a ligature mark (known throughout this report as Ligature A) on the neck below the mandible. Ligature A is approximately 1.5 inches wide and encircles the neck in the form of a "V" on the anterior of the neck and an inverted "V" on the posterior of the neck, consistent with hanging. Minor abrasions are present in the area of Ligature A. Lack of hemorrhage surrounding Ligature A indicates this injury to be post-mortem.

...Following removal of the shirt, a second ligature mark (known throughout this report as Ligature B) was observed on the victim’s neck. The mark is dark red ligature and encircles the neck, crossing the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal promience. The width of the mark varies between 0.8 and 1cm and is horizontal in orientation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature mark shows petechial hemorrhaging. Ligature B is not consistent with the belt that caused Ligature A. The absence of abrasions associated with Ligature B, along with the variations in the width of the ligature mark, are consistent with a soft ligature, such as a length of fabric. No trace evidence was recovered from Ligature B that might assist in identification of the ligature used.





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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:40 pm

Eileen -

I'm again posting referencing your orginial post.



RZ's AR...



Last edited by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:
HinkySD wrote:
What did you really THINK when you heard there was a three legged table found near Rebecca's body?

Then what did you think when you heard that Adam supposedly USED the three legged table to cut Rebecca down?

How about that THREE LEGGED table? Why did the LE take the table?



At what point do you ask 'Why is this case a freakshow circus?'

Hi HinkySD - Please refresh me on where it is stated the leg broke off the table when Adam pulled it that morning (apologies for not doing so myself; am currently time challenged).

Has this been "assumed" from his kicking and grunting in the 911 call, then repeated by media thus becoming a factoid, or is it stated in any of the SDSO documents?

Actually, considering the discrepancies in the documents, they don't hold much water either way IMO.
For all we know that leg could have already been broken off the table well before July 13.

That's why I ask: did Adam STATE the leg broke off, then LE simply believed him? Did SDSO examine the wood at the point where it broke to see if it was a fresh break?

IF the leg was already broken previously and Adam lied or mislead SDSO, this would be evidence of staging.
IF SDSO did NOT examine the wood to determine how fresh the break was, this would be evidence of shoddy, bias investigation, thus indicative of malfeasance.

Hi Eileen-

Here the table is spoken of in RZ's AR....


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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:35 pm

The reasons why L.E. handled this investigation poorly seemed to be influenced by Jonah's money and connections. I don't believe Rebecca or her family did anything wrong to deserve what happened to them.

L.E. was unprofessional, biased and possibly inept and corrupted.

If Jonah Shacknai had been found as Rebecca was do you think Gore would have left him exposed to overhead media photographers and curious teenage gawkers for 13+ hours? Do you think he would have failed to collect and test crucial evidence so that he could rush the suicide determination before thoroughly ruling out murder?

No wonder so many in San Diego are critical of Gore. He showed little concern for the legal and human rights of Rebecca and her family. He violated his oath of office by bending over backwards to cater to Jonah. Both he and Jonah blatantly lied and issued intimidating threats to the Zahau family, Anne Bremner and outspoken citizens who dared to publicly express their opinion. Both Gore and Jonah also refused to cooperate with the Zahau's independent investigation.

Jonah is not entitled to preferential treatment. His money and connections do not make him better than anyone.

Rebecca did not deserve how L.E. direspected her.

This situation reminded me of how the KKK lyched their victims with blood lustful enjoyment and then left the victim hanging for all to see. Did they derive a sense of superiority over their victims? Did they justify the killings by displaying their victims as mere animals?

They did not shame the innocent victim they only exposed themselves as the hideous monsters that they must truly be to ever do such a thing to another human being.

I feel nauseated by how Gore handled this case.

The above written is only my opinion. Afro


Last edited by Wig-o-matic on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typos)
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by GlaringError on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:36 pm

Hinky SD: Thank YOU for the post(!!!!):
Thank you for the link!

~snipped from AR of muder vicitm that was staged to look like suicide ~

Removal of the belt revealed a ligature mark (known throughout this report as Ligature A) on the neck below the mandible. Ligature A is approximately 1.5 inches wide and encircles the neck in the form of a "V" on the anterior of the neck and an inverted "V" on the posterior of the neck, consistent with hanging. Minor abrasions are present in the area of Ligature A. Lack of hemorrhage surrounding Ligature A indicates this injury to be post-mortem.
...Following removal of the shirt, a second ligature mark (known throughout this report as Ligature B) was observed on the victim’s neck. The mark is dark red ligature and encircles the neck, crossing the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal promience. The width of the mark varies between 0.8 and 1cm and is horizontal in orientation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature mark shows petechial hemorrhaging. Ligature B is not consistent with the belt that caused Ligature A. The absence of abrasions associated with Ligature B, along with the variations in the width of the ligature mark, are consistent with a soft ligature, such as a length of fabric. No trace evidence was recovered from Ligature B that might assist in identification of the ligature used."

BBM

Those two bold items stand out to me, because I may be wrong, but I don't see anything about a hemorrhage surrounding the noose mark. And I don't see anything about abrasions (maybe I don't recall correctly) being associated with that second ligature-type mark on Rebecca's neck. the one separated by the main one by the area of palor
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:38 pm

Thanks Hinky -
No mention that the leg broke off the table when Adam "pulled a nearby wooden table to the decedent's body, stood on top, cut the rope and laid the decedent's naked body on the grass. He removed a blue cloth which had been in her mouth… to perform CPR and at 0648 placed a 911 call… CFD arrived at 0653 hours, confirmed death without intervention.."

So what the flug WAS Adam doing during the 911 call when he was huffing and puffing and the scraping sounds and stick falling and all the profanity and the "f---ing kid" and the "oops" and the "I'm doing CPR right now" and the "I’m compressing her chest right now, I’m up to about 20, 30 now" DURING the 911 call?? And why did SDSO homicide Curran say in his first media interview the morning Rebecca was found when he said decedent was "in distress" when CFD arrived and died shortly thereafter?? SO MUCH B.S.
BS
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:47 pm

HinkySD wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:
Hi HinkySD - Please refresh me on where it is stated the leg broke off the table when Adam pulled it that morning (apologies for not doing so myself; am currently time challenged).

Has this been "assumed" from his kicking and grunting in the 911 call, then repeated by media thus becoming a factoid, or is it stated in any of the SDSO documents?

Actually, considering the discrepancies in the documents, they don't hold much water either way IMO.
For all we know that leg could have already been broken off the table well before July 13.

That's why I ask: did Adam STATE the leg broke off, then LE simply believed him? Did SDSO examine the wood at the point where it broke to see if it was a fresh break?

IF the leg was already broken previously and Adam lied or mislead SDSO, this would be evidence of staging.
IF SDSO did NOT examine the wood to determine how fresh the break was, this would be evidence of shoddy, bias investigation, thus indicative of malfeasance.

Hi Eileen-

Here the table is spoken of in RZ's AR....



Just a side note. Did Adam call 911 before or after allegedly cutting Rebecca down. The AR showed that he allegedly cut her down before calling 911. You tube has the actual 911 call. On that tape you can hear him acting like he was cutting her down during the call. Which was it-before or after? Is this another glaring error? Afro
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by GlaringError on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:05 am

Wig O... those are good questions. My best recollection, even though speculation muddies it, is that he said he cut her down before and no I don't have a link.

Also, it seems that most of the facts turn out to be opposite of what sheriff said. So.... is it ever time to explore why he would immediately say that Rebecca and Max's deaths were not connected? In other words they are connected. In order to find out why Rebecca died is to find out why Max died, then.... no?
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Tamta on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:29 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
HinkySD wrote:

Hi Eileen-

Here the table is spoken of in RZ's AR....



Just a side note. Did Adam call 911 before or after allegedly cutting Rebecca down. The AR showed that he allegedly cut her down before calling 911. You tube has the actual 911 call. On that tape you can hear him acting like he was cutting her down during the call. Which was it-before or after? Is this another glaring error? Afro

911 Audio
Adam Shacknai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyGs0d2d-ck
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:33 am

GlaringError wrote:Wig O... those are good questions. My best recollection, even though speculation muddies it, is that he said he cut her down before and no I don't have a link.

Also, it seems that most of the facts turn out to be opposite of what sheriff said. So.... is it ever time to explore why he would immediately say that Rebecca and Max's deaths were not connected? In other words they are connected. In order to find out why Rebecca died is to find out why Max died, then.... no?

One reason their deaths could be connected would be if the murderer blamed Rebecca for Max's injuries and subsequent death. However, that would be a superficial explanation. The actual reason that their deaths are most likely related probably goes much deeper. Imo. Afro
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:51 am

Eileen_Dover wrote:Thanks Hinky -
No mention that the leg broke off the table when Adam "pulled a nearby wooden table to the decedent's body, stood on top, cut the rope and laid the decedent's naked body on the grass. He removed a blue cloth which had been in her mouth… to perform CPR and at 0648 placed a 911 call… CFD arrived at 0653 hours, confirmed death without intervention.."

So what the flug WAS Adam doing during the 911 call when he was huffing and puffing and the scraping sounds and stick falling and all the profanity and the "f---ing kid" and the "oops" and the "I'm doing CPR right now" and the "I’m compressing her chest right now, I’m up to about 20, 30 now" DURING the 911 call?? And why did SDSO homicide Curran say in his first media interview the morning Rebecca was found when he said decedent was "in distress" when CFD arrived and died shortly thereafter?? SO MUCH B.S.
BS

How could Adam have been doing "compressions" to RZ....she wasn't laying anywhere near flat on her back - she was laying more to one side than flat due to her wrists being bound behind her back. If awkard attempts were made to attempt compressions...20 or 30 of them (a lot) then I would think there would be bruising to RZ, either on the chest or on her back - there was no mention of any bruising in the AR.

More importantly, IMO, if you were performing compressions to get someone to breathe...wouldn't you first loosen the rope around RZ's neck? There was no mention of that in the AR.

And...the word "compressions"...I think is a word that would be used more by someone who's had CPR training and knows the correct language. But...CPR training would have taught somone to lay a person flat on a hard surface and remove all obstacles restricting breating - including a noose around the neck.


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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:54 am

RZ was down on the ground when authorities arrived.

The only person "saying" that RZ was hanging over the balcony was Adam.

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:56 am

Why didn't Adam get a knife and just reach up and cut the rope?
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:38 am

Puzzler wrote:Why didn't Adam get a knife and just reach up and cut the rope?

Puzzler-

The AR stated that Adam ran into the main house to get a knife to cut the rope. He should have been able to reach up and cut the rope unless he is extremely short. I don't ever recall his actual height mentioned.

If Adam is a very short man then that might explain why he needed to climb onto the table to cut Rebecca down. I doubt that even a short light weight man would be able to balance his weight and Rebecca's dead weight on a three legged table.

If the table leg broke under the weight of the two bodies on top then the table would topple over spilling it occupants onto the grass in a dramatic fashion due to the force of gravity. If that had occurred it should have been mentioned in the AR.

Does the omission of the reason why the table had only three legs constitute a glaring error? Surely it would be simple forensics to examine the broken table leg and determine whether the break was an old or new.

It would be equally simple to determine whether the table was necessary or not by factoring how Adam's height and arm length corresponded to the alleged height of the noose around Rebecca's neck. These calculations would be simple to do with the correct measurements.

Was Adam's statement about what he did analysed? Who knows? We do not have the details of all that was done.

How the table came to have only three legs and whether the table leg broke when Adam allegedly stood on it is speculation. It was not mentioned in the AR. IIRC, how and when the table got to have only three legs had never been reported anywhere. Imo. Afro
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:43 am

I don't have a link now, but at sometime there was a lot of discussion about Adam and a range of height for Adam was used and with that range, Adam could have stood on the ground and cut the rope.

Somewhere, way back, there was something released that said that Adam told an LEO that he pulled the table and the leg broke off during the table being pulled.

I don't remember now if it was in one of the search warrants or a reporter asking questions.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:53 am

Smooth Operator, a poster on Websleuths, provided us with an excellent rendering wrt Adam cutting the rope from standing on the ground at the link below. Scroll down the page to the post at: 09-27-2011, 01:09 AM

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149545&page=3

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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:00 am

At one point on THM, we had a picture of JS's son, Ethan's, bar mitzvah. Big group picture of the family.
Adam was in the picture and he was taller that almost everyone in the picture. So, I do not believe that he is shorter than 5' 8", as was used as the height in the rendering Smooth Operator posted on Websleuths.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:18 am

I was looking for the bar mitzvah photo - I remembered it was done by May Photography. I found the site, but the family photo has been deleted (like a lot of other things on the internet that have been scrubbed). But, while there, I saw a post that said these photos were taken in Scottsdale, AZ about 9 months ago...check it out....do you think it's *****....I think it could be:

[Edited by KZ to remove links. Per discussion with J4A, please do not post pics, or links to pics, of minor children who are siblings or friends of victims. Thank you, everyone, for your future cooperation with this request. ~KZ]


Last edited by KZ on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Removed links to pics of minor (sibling of victim))
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Wig-o-matic on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:40 am

Puzzler wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:Thanks Hinky -
No mention that the leg broke off the table when Adam "pulled a nearby wooden table to the decedent's body, stood on top, cut the rope and laid the decedent's naked body on the grass. He removed a blue cloth which had been in her mouth… to perform CPR and at 0648 placed a 911 call… CFD arrived at 0653 hours, confirmed death without intervention.."

So what the flug WAS Adam doing during the 911 call when he was huffing and puffing and the scraping sounds and stick falling and all the profanity and the "f---ing kid" and the "oops" and the "I'm doing CPR right now" and the "I’m compressing her chest right now, I’m up to about 20, 30 now" DURING the 911 call?? And why did SDSO homicide Curran say in his first media interview the morning Rebecca was found when he said decedent was "in distress" when CFD arrived and died shortly thereafter?? SO MUCH B.S.
BS

How could Adam have been doing "compressions" to RZ....she wasn't laying anywhere near flat on her back - she was laying more to one side than flat due to her wrists being bound behind her back. If awkard attempts were made to attempt compressions...20 or 30 of them (a lot) then I would think there would be bruising to RZ, either on the chest or on her back - there was no mention of any bruising in the AR.

More importantly, IMO, if you were performing compressions to get someone to breathe...wouldn't you first loosen the rope around RZ's neck? There was no mention of that in the AR.

And...the word "compressions"...I think is a word that would be used more by someone who's had CPR training and knows the correct language. But...CPR training would have taught somone to lay a person flat on a hard surface and remove all obstacles restricting breating - including a noose around the neck.



Technically speaking Adam did not claim to do CPR. He only said he did compression.

If Adam had CPR training and certification then he would be expected to know how to appropriately
position Rebecca's body. He would have removed the noose and tee shirt gag first since that would be the most obvious problem. He would then check for breathing. If she was not breathing, then this would be very obvious right away and he might or might not give her breaths.

Some people will not give mouth to mouth because they fear being infected with a disease. In this case, it would be acceptable to only do cardiac compression.

To effectively perform compression the person's back must be flush with a firm surface. If he did any compression then it was not effective since her back was not flush with the ground due to the wrist bindings.

However, before doing compression he should have checked and known whether she had a carotid pulse.
(This step might be outdated.)

If she was not breathing and did not have a carotid pulse, was cold and had facial rigidity then I would think he would suspect she had died.

If this was the case then he should have immediately called 911 to ask for assistance. They might then instruct him to give compression until the paramedics arrived.

Imo, he didn't have CPR certification training because he didn't know how to do any of the steps correctly. Though, he did have some concept of compression possibly from the movies or television shows.

CPR protocol has changed drastically over the past few years so some of my steps might be out dated. However, the basic CPR concepts are still valid. Afro
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:51 am

Compressions - yes, I would think that anyone working on a tugboat would be required to know how to do CPR.

Because the steps weren't being done correctly doesn't mean one can assume that the person hasn't had training IMO.

Even if one was doing compressions, 20 or 30 of them, I would think that there would be markings/bruising/maybe even cracked ribs that would have shown up during RZ's autopsy.

I don't think Adam could have been performing CPR...just using the word compressions.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:00 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Technically speaking Adam did not claim to do CPR. He only said he did compression.


Hi Wig=o - BBM -(and clipped for brevity) Just for the record, Adam did state on 911 he was doing CPR:

911 Operator: No sir, I need the address.

AS: I’m doing CPR right now.

AS: You came here yesterday to pick up a little boy.

911 Operator: Okay sir, I wasn't working yesterday. I don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:14 am

I am sick to death of this Adam attempted CPR bullpoop!

Would you attempt CPR on a drowning victim without taking their head out of the water?

No, you wouldn't. That is why it is beyond ridiculous to start CPR on someone with the ligature tight in it's 'furrow.' Good God! The AR states THEY CUT the shirt and noose off of Rebecca.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:46 am

The only other picture I've seen of Adam is one where his hair was slicked back and he had on black-rimmed glasses and is the only thing I have to go on.

I "thought" that Adam was the guy in the back row, to the left, in the black shirt.

I can't tell much about the guy on the right with the way his face is situated.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:04 am




Okay, this is the only picture that I have that is of Adam...his hair is slicked back and he has on black-rimmed glasses. His hairline seems somewhat recessed in areas.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Tamta on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:11 am

Puzzler wrote:Compressions - yes, I would think that anyone working on a tugboat would be required to know how to do CPR.

Because the steps weren't being done correctly doesn't mean one can assume that the person hasn't had training IMO.

Even if one was doing compressions, 20 or 30 of them, I would think that there would be markings/bruising/maybe even cracked ribs that would have shown up during RZ's autopsy.

I don't think Adam could have been performing CPR...just using the word compressions.

BBM

All the posts here seem spot on in the suspicion of Adam in this 911 call.

One of several red flags in this call:
His comments about CPR are significant in the fact that they fail to provide fully relevant information to the dispatcher.

Extensive analysis in suspicious death 911 calls identifies this behavior as deceiving by omission. Very view 'guilty' (not directly guilty always but those in possession of guilty knowledge) lie by commission.

Another red flag:
Adam can not provide the dispatcher with accurate factual information.
One obvious example: there is a considerable lag time between when the dispatcher requests an address and when she actually receives one.

THere are several more indicators, as in red flags.


My interpretation of Adam's call is that he reporting Rebecca's death, and not requesting help for Rebecca.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Lash on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:33 am

Respectfully snipped for brevity-

Wig-o-matic wrote:How the table came to have only three legs and whether the table leg broke when Adam allegedly stood on it is speculation. It was not mentioned in the AR. IIRC, how and when the table got to have only three legs had never been reported anywhere. Imo. Afro

FWIW Two sources reported the use of the table:

•SDSO press conference https://viewer.zoho.com/download?genFile=hdtYj

NEMETH: I'll start with the outside scene to give you an idea of what we found outside and then I will move to the inside scene to give an idea of what we found there. Outside we found Rebecca, she was lying on the lawn in the courtyard roughly where I described previously. Her wrists and ankles were bound with red rope and her hands were behind her back. The same red rope and a T-shirt were around her neck. And the same red rope was hanging over the balcony railing. There was a table below the balcony and a kitchen knife on the ground near Rebecca. Investigation showed the knife and the table had been used by the reporting party to cut Rebecca down when she was discovered. Adam Shacknai, the homeowner's brother, was the reporting party and had been staying in the guesthouse at the time.

•CBS8 http://www.cbs8.com/story/16150816/911-call-released-in-hanging-death-at-coronados-spreckels-mansion

Snipped - During the 911 call, Adam Shacknai can be heard hyperventilating while apparently moving a wooden table into a position underneath the naked, bound and gagged body of Rebecca Zahau.

At one point, it sounds as if one of the wooden legs of the table breaks off and falls to the ground, while Adam scrambles to cut down Zahau's corpse.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:18 pm

Thanks Lash - So we still don't have a direct quote from Adam saying the leg broke when he pulled it.

Seems to have been supposition: 3 legged table + broken leg on ground near table + 911 sounds + Adam says table was used to stand on to cut RZ down = ASSumption leg broke when Adam pulled it under RZ at (approx.) 6:30AM July 13, 2011...

Of course, investigative analysis of the wood could/should prove if was a fresh break or not. Also boot prints on top of table would help to prove IF Adam ever stood on it. Enlarging photos of table at the crime scene do NOT show boot prints but the images are not clear... By inverting, seems there are smudge marks around the edges as would appear when moving table with 2 hands. Also a small smudge near the center. One would expect a lot of boot marks going in several directions...



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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by HinkySD on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:25 pm

Puzzler wrote:


Okay, this is the only picture that I have that is of Adam...his hair is slicked back and he has on black-rimmed glasses. His hairline seems somewhat recessed in areas.

Hi Puzzler,

I am not a family insider, but when this pic was posted the sloucher on the right was identified as Adam.

Here is just some stuff previously posted at HM.

From 'Classmates.com'
Adam Shacknai
Suffern High School, Suffern, NY
Class of 1981
Member of Since: Jul 19, 2002
Other Communities: George Washington University (1981-1985)

From a New York web article:

Adam Shacknai, a graduate of Suffern High School's class of 1981, was staying in a guesthouse at his brother's 27-room, multimillion-dollar mansion. Jonah Shacknai was apparently not home when the report was made.

Shacknai, 54, lived in Suffern years ago and graduated from Suffern High School in 1974.


http://www.lohud.com/article/20110716/NEWS03/107160349

From 'MyLife'

Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai (63) was born in 1949. Marcelle currently lives in Suffern, New York. Before that, Marcelle lived in New York, NY from 1976 to 1986. Before that, Marcelle lived in New York, NY from 1988 to 1988.

Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai is related to Gideon Shacknai, who is 81 years old and lives in Suffern, NY. Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai is also related to Selma Shacknai, who is 79 years old and lives in Suffern, NY. Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai is also related to Diane Bijou, who is 60 years old and lives in New York, NY. Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai is also related to Rachelle Bijou, who is 65 years old and lives in New York, NY. Marcelle Gideon Bijou-Shacknai is also related to Adam Shacknai, who is 48 years old.



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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Eileen_Dover on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:33 pm

A fairly clean break, would indicate leg broke off right to left??
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by Puzzler on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:14 pm

I wish I could find where I read that Adam told the officer that the leg broke off while he was pulling it to the balcony area.

I remember that the officer questioned Adam: the leg broke off when you pulled it and Adam said yes.

I do remember reading that....maybe in a search warrant...not positive.

When I have some extra time, I'll look again....I did a quick search, that was unsuccessful.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Post by GlaringError on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:26 pm

Puzzler: IIRC.... it was during the or a briefing to the media on the case, and I thought it was Gore who was asked if the table leg broke off while Adam was dragging the table to where Rebecca was. Gore answered that this was correct.

Which, again, means nothing, since Gore just makes things up and offers them as facts.
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Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

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