Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 9:48 am

Tamta wrote:Authorities search Arizona desert for missing Tucson girl Isabel Celis

BBM

Also on Tuesday, police officially confirmed Isabel was kidnapped.


Tucson Police Chief Robert Villaseñor told the Star, “Someone played a part in her disappearance... Some person is responsible for Isabel's disappearance. Isabel did not just wander off.”

Here it is again.
It is not being shouted from the roof tops by LE so media must be sourcing each other.

http://www.examiner.com/article/authorities-search-arizona-desert-for-missing-tucson-girl-isabel-celis

I think so too - because I have yet to see a direct "quote" from the police that say she was abducted or kidnapped -- and surely they would have printed that instead of the blurb they chose if that were the case because that would be an even more compelling statement. The statement they chose is very tentative.

All I see quoted repeatedly in the articles is the quote from police that say "someone played a part...she did not leave on her own" ... well big freaking DUH!!!!!

But that does not necessarily imply she was taken by someone UNKNOWN to her.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 9:56 am

justanopinion wrote:http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/child_abduction/4.html

information on the abduction theory..

based on this seems rare that 2 men would be involved!

Excellent site! I rec this for the library here.

Clipped-
"The duration of a kidnapping episode was usually less than 24 hours (90%). Only less than 10% lasted longer than one day. Non-family abductions showed the same patterns though 30% lasted less than even 3 hours. The most dramatic difference between non-family abductions and kidnappings was in the treatment of the victim. In 99% of non-family abductions, the child was returned alive. In kidnappings, a safe return occurred only 57% of the time. Ominously, the child suffered a sexual or physical assault in an astounding 86% of the stereotypical kidnappings. These findings powerfully emphasize the extreme danger of these events and the urgency of police interaction as soon as possible."
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by justanopinion on Wed May 16, 2012 10:02 am

Stolat wrote:
Tamta wrote:Authorities search Arizona desert for missing Tucson girl Isabel Celis

BBM

Also on Tuesday, police officially confirmed Isabel was kidnapped.


Tucson Police Chief Robert Villaseñor told the Star, “Someone played a part in her disappearance... Some person is responsible for Isabel's disappearance. Isabel did not just wander off.”

Here it is again.
It is not being shouted from the roof tops by LE so media must be sourcing each other.

http://www.examiner.com/article/authorities-search-arizona-desert-for-missing-tucson-girl-isabel-celis

I think so too - because I have yet to see a direct "quote" from the police that say she was abducted or kidnapped -- and surely they would have printed that instead of the blurb they chose if that were the case because that would be an even more compelling statement. The statement they chose is very tentative.

All I see quoted repeatedly in the articles is the quote from police that say "someone played a part...she did not leave on her own" ... well big freaking DUH!!!!!

But that does not necessarily imply she was taken by someone UNKNOWN to her.



The statement LE is making is very loosely constructed. It really doesn't say anything... Doesn't say someone known/unknown or alive/? really just says she didn't leave by herself! It is about as much of a non-statement as silence!
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Hinky's Mimi on Wed May 16, 2012 10:04 am

I wonder if it's possible that LE is saying it is an "abduction" in order to purposely take a little heat off the father. The father then might make some move they are hoping he'll make. Take his family away... go out on searches in the desert...call it an abduction... could they be trying to make him or an accomplice go somewhere to do something with these tactics? (Just speculation.)
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 10:05 am

Sto-
My favorites were dogs the kids had growing up. These two wonderful mutts would have given their lives to protect the property and anyone accepted into the house or yard by family. The lead dog would bark but the other would attack without barking. (No tail wagging. She could stare me down and give me the creeps!) They were mix of Shepherd, Husky and lab. I miss them and bless the memories we shared. (BTW the attack words for the dogs were "Thank You!" I figured, in case of a home invasion, my attacker would not have a clue when I called out thank you and he would be hit by 70 lbs of flying fur.

Pit bulls currently. Think they are mean? LOL! Barkers and mean but say their names and they will GIVE you the house! The names are the key to a lot of tail waging and sloppy kisses.

Someday, I would like a chocolate lab and a greyhound. Beautiful dogs.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 10:13 am

Freckles wrote:
justanopinion wrote:http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/child_abduction/4.html

information on the abduction theory..

based on this seems rare that 2 men would be involved!

IIRC, there was a news vid interviewing the neighbor. She said she was awoken about 6:30 by her dogs barking, the neighbor's (Celis) dogs barking, and hearing TWO men talking. The voices were coming from over the wall; her bedroom is directly across from the room Isabel was reportedly sleeping in.

The mother, in her 911 call stated the possibility of someone going over the wall, removing the screen, and snatching Isabel. I have problems with this theory:
1. Who would know this is where Isabel was sleeping that night? Not her normal sleep room.
2. Dogs:Inside or out? Won't matter. Dogs WILL protect the children. In the house the dogs would have been sounding a huge alarm, ripping at a door or trying to bite the intruder. In the yard the dogs would have been protecting the property, THEIR property from any UNKNOWN intruder.
3. Abduction: Someone is going to climb over a wall, kidnap a 6 yr old who will be screaming and kicking, risk a dog bite, haul a child back over a wall? For what avail?
Sorry but there are much easier ways and less risky to snatch a child.
4. First talk with 911 and the mother is creating an abduction theory AND explanation when it is not called for. Too soon and too much = inside knowledge or an info set up.

The dogs DID alarm at 6:30 according to the neighbor. And that is when she heard the two male voices. This tells me at least one of the males was a stranger or some person the dogs did NOT trust. The behavior of the males may have raised the Hinky pelt of our fine friends.

IMO at this time, BOTH the parents know what happened. I suspect the older 14 yr old boy may also know what happened. Because he is a minor, I don't think his statements will be released at this time.

In the Redacted 911 Transcript, Becky refers to the point of entry like this:

-Q: does uh any uh marks, scars?
-A: Other than the window out, I cant see anything else. And the door is locked outside so they had to have jumped over the fence or I don't know what they did.

Looking at how the operator worded the question, her distress, and the likelihood that Justin and Sergio may be speaking to her at the same time she is on the call, I see that she is not hearing the question properly, therefore goes into an answer about signs of break in but her tone of voice did not betray that this was a theory she was certain about or had an agenda with. We do not know where she is standing while making the call, but it sounds like she may be in view of the actual window while speaking. It is probably safe to assume that who ever from the house called Becky to tell her to "get her butt home" (Sergio) gave her these details so she did have knowledge of them prior, as opposed to just waking up and seeing them for the first time and discovering them herself.

I did not have red flags about her response here, as opposed to looking at Sergios and Sergio Jr.'s responses

Sergio Jr: After Officer greets on phone
-"Hey I need you guys to come down here uh someone broke in and grabbed her"

Sergio:After greeting and he states his purpose for the call
-"...I believe she was abducted from my house."

I see the 2 Sergio's making conclusions for the officers.
In the context of this call I can not see Becky doing the same thing.

What do I see from Becky?

-She knows Isa was in the room where Isa was alledgedly taken from.
She must have seen Isa went to bed there or was told about it before she fell
asleep, because in the call Becky says that:

"I should have come and checked on her."

-Becky left for work and believes the door was locked because she in her mind was the only one going through it at that time of day. So either other people were there besides the family and still sleeping and not expected to leave before household wakeup time, or there was no one else sleeping there and Justin arrived after Sergio or Sergio Jr. called him.

-Becky has knowledge that Isa was not following her normal routine of sleeping with her brothers.

-Becky has knowledge of the factors that led to the reason why Isa was not sleeping with her brothers and was in her room 'alone'.

-Becky knows if anything else was happening in the home that night before or if anyone else was there.

-Becky knows if Justin stayed there that night or did not.

Becky at the time of the 911 call being made knows information which may be helpful, but I can not say beyond a reasonable doubt based on this transcript alone (the earliest moments that Becky becomes aware of ISa's disappearance) that she returns home and knows that Ilsa is already gone or what happened to her between Becky falling asleep and leaving for work.

By the time this family speaks publicly, does Becky seem to know what happened?
I would argue she definitely has more knowledge and it is very sensitive information and it is sensitive enough to make her feel the need to participate in a possible cover up.

It has occured to me that at the time of making the 911 call, Becky is in the dark and not in the know, but the men, including Sergio Jr perhaps, do know.

Becky gains some, maybe not all and maybe not the truth either, knowledge after the 911 call was placed.



Last edited by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 10:19 am

[quote="TamtaIn the Redacted 911 Transcript, Becky refers to the point of entry like this:
-Q: does uh any uh marks, scars?
-A: Other than the window out, I cant see anything else. And the door is locked outside so they had to have jumped over the fence or I don't know what they did.

Looking at how the operator worded the question, her distress, and the likelihood that Justin and Sergio may be speaking to her at the same time she is on the call, I see that she is not hearing the question properly, therefore goes into an answer about signs of break in but her tone of voice did not betray that this was a theory she was certain about or had an agenda with. We do not know where she is standing while making the call, but it sounds like she may be in view of the actual window while speaking. It is probably safe to assume that who ever from the house called Becky to tell her to "get her butt home" (Sergio) gave her these details so she did have knowledge of them prior, as opposed to just waking up and seeing them for the first time and discovering them herself.

I did not have red flags about her response here, as opposed to looking at Sergios and Sergio Jr.'s responses

Sergio Jr: After Officer greets on phone
-"Hey I need you guys to come down here uh someone broke in and grabbed her"

Sergio:After greeting and he states his purpose for the call
-"...I believe she was abducted from my house."

I see the 2 Sergio's making conclusions for the officers.
In the context of this call I can not see Becky doing the same thing.

What do I see from Becky?

-She knows Isa was in the room where Isa was alledgedly taken from.
She must have seen Isa went to bed there or was told about it before she fell
asleep, because in the call Becky says that:

"I should have come and checked on her."

-Becky left for work and believes the door was locked because she in her mind was the only one going through it at that time of day.

-Becky has knowledge that Isa was not following her normal routine of sleeping with her brothers.

-Becky has knowledge of the factors that led to the reason why Isa was not sleeping with her brothers and was in her room 'alone'.

-Becky knows if anything else was happening in the home that night before or if anyone else was there.

-Becky knows if Justin stayed there that night or did not.

Becky at the time of the 911 call being made knows information which may be helpful, but I can not say beyond a reasonable doubt based on this transcript alone (the earliest moments that Becky becomes aware of ISa's disappearance) that she returns home and knows that Ilsa is already gone or what happened to her between Becky falling asleep and leaving for work.

By the time this family speaks publicly, does Becky seem to know what happened?
I would argue she definitely has more knowledge and it is very sensitive information and it is sensitive enough to make her feel the need to participate in a possible cover up.

It has occured to me that at the time of making the 911 call, Becky is in the dark and not in the know, but the men, including Sergio Jr perhaps, do know.

[/quote]

AND Becky had to have been awake at the time the dogs were barking at 6:30am
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 10:31 am

@ Stolat
BBM

AND Becky had to have been awake at the time the dogs were barking at 6:30am

Yes.
That is the thing.

The dogs are a huge clue and question!!

I do not have the floor plan anymore so i can not look at the house.

She had to have heard them if she was in the house and getting ready for work at that time in her room.
SHe never ever mentions them.
Only witness does.

Are they in a habit of drowning out their dog's barking so they do not register it when they are barking?

The citations make me think so and that they lack sensitivity in this area, but that is not an excuse.

Was someone awake and did they take them out?

was the tv on and people talking in the LR?

was she in the front of the house?

was she by the red car?

Her response to this would be a good indicator of potential prior knowldege that something was up that morning.

The 911 call does not betray that.

The subsequent interviews betray knowledge that something was up the night before, but not that morning.

I can not put Becky in a definitive position of knowing at the time the 911 was made yet.

We have very limited verbal samples from her regarding that moment in time, unlike Marlene Lamar for example.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Bmore on Wed May 16, 2012 10:49 am

What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by justanopinion on Wed May 16, 2012 10:57 am

Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 10:57 am

Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?

That is what I would like to hear.
I want to hear what she was doing that morning and what she noticed prior to leaving the house.

It could definitively tip the scales in terms of being able to speculate that becky was aware of something before she was told by Sergio and before the 911 call.

We have very limited verbal samples of her speaking and everything gets shifted to the night before.

Does anyone have the GMA transcripts easy to pull up?

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Bmore on Wed May 16, 2012 10:59 am

I have 2 big dogs and when I get ready in the morning I'm not near them and the bathroom and bedroom doors are shut... I won't hear them... Just a thought...
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:00 am

justanopinion wrote:
Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!

I would tend to think the same.

I believe the ear witnesses perception of their barking as out of the norm and very agitated.

The Master Bed and Bath are also at the back of the house where the back yard is, which is where I am assuming they were.

Could the dogs travel around with house within the walls?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 11:00 am

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2012/05/isabel-celis-parents-conspire-to.html

"II. Accidental Death and Cover Up
Without much to go on via statements, right now, this appears the most likely, to me: the parents are both covering up what happened to Isabel."
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:01 am

Bmore wrote:I have 2 big dogs and when I get ready in the morning I'm not near them and the bathroom and bedroom doors are shut... I won't hear them... Just a thought...

We need to hear Becky on this aspect of the morning.
I think it would be significant-

If she was giving a truthful answer or not.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:04 am

Freckles wrote:http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2012/05/isabel-celis-parents-conspire-to.html

"II. Accidental Death and Cover Up
Without much to go on via statements, right now, this appears the most likely, to me: the parents are both covering up what happened to Isabel."

That is my main theory at the moment, Freckles.

I see that Serge is mucho creepy, (Justin a bit too) but the allegations of sexual abuse or sexual homicide are serious and I would need more to go on before entertaining them and verbalizing those allegations against another human being.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 11:07 am

Tamta at 9:13-

I feel sick reading this.
No where does ANYONE use Isabel's name or even the nic they said they used, Isa. The brothers don't even use her name! This tells me they ALL know what happened to this little one.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 11:12 am

Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:
Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!

I would tend to think the same.

I believe the ear witnesses perception of their barking as out of the norm and very agitated.

The Master Bed and Bath are also at the back of the house where the back yard is, which is where I am assuming they were.

Could the dogs travel around with house within the walls?
The father said he fell asleep on the couch watching the Diamondback fame on TV.
He said the wall adjoining was a wall shared with the room Isabel was asleep in.
This means he was either in the large central living area or the small "guest" room near the back and near the back porch area.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 11:17 am

"
III. Sexual Abuse and Cover Up

The father's description of Isabel was focused on her beauty. Who else lived in the home? There were not enough statements to indicate sexual abuse, but it is something police have to check for. See John Ramsey's statements at www.lsiscan.com for linguistic indications of possible sexual abuse. Should the parents continue to speak out, we will learn more about them. As humans, we cannot really lie; we attempt to and it is seen. We attempt to conceal but when we speak, information flows anyway.

The sexual abuse could have been by a brother, which may cause the parents to cover up in fear of losing another child, but sexual abuse by another adult (uncle) would not likely be enough to unite them in conspiracy. A 14 year old boy should not be sleeping with his 6 year old sister, especially when they claim to have had a room for her. It is shocking that NBC did not ask about this, or about so many other topics, including the polygraph.

They appear like loving parents. If they are loving parents, they must be united in cover up, for a reason. I don't see them being united if the uncle, for example, was sexually abusing Isabel, and killed her out of fear of discovery. "

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2012/05/isabel-celis-parents-conspire-to.html
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:21 am

Freckles wrote:Tamta at 9:13-

I feel sick reading this.
No where does ANYONE use Isabel's name or even the nic they said they used, Isa. The brothers don't even use her name! This tells me they ALL know what happened to this little one.

I agree.
me too.


But in the Q and A format of the 911 call and the operator does not know Isa and the family are responding to specific line of questioning.

I am weighing these concerns against that. I had to call 911 for my baby this winter at 200am, and I do not think that I referred to him by name in the call outside of vitals for identification. I repeatedly said 'he he he" IIRC.

the reference to isa as a missing child and not my kid or daughter was just beyond concerning.

and of course multiple calls with a child in the reporting position is just so inappropriate and fishy.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by justanopinion on Wed May 16, 2012 11:26 am

Seems like there are details being added to the story..
When asked about the last time they saw Isa... it was mentioned about her hair, asking if she was hungry, walking by, wearing...
NOW... saying she had a shower...

that may have happened or not... but it is a new detail... at least to the public!
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 11:27 am

Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:
Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!

I would tend to think the same.

I believe the ear witnesses perception of their barking as out of the norm and very agitated.

The Master Bed and Bath are also at the back of the house where the back yard is, which is where I am assuming they were.

Could the dogs travel around with house within the walls?

I am not sure why the dogs would be outside at 6:30am in the morning unless Becky let them out when she woke up. If so, then that tells us that Becky was awake at the time the neighbor heard men's voices at the side wall. If Becky were awake and had the lights on, shower going, hair dryer going, etc then that's pretty damn ballsey of someone to enter the home knowing/hearing someone is awake and getting ready for work ??? I just can't even fathom.

But my initial take from the neighbor's interview was that the Celis dogs could be heard barking from within the house, not outside.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:28 am

Freckles wrote:"
III. Sexual Abuse and Cover Up

The father's description of Isabel was focused on her beauty. Who else lived in the home? There were not enough statements to indicate sexual abuse, but it is something police have to check for. See John Ramsey's statements at www.lsiscan.com for linguistic indications of possible sexual abuse. Should the parents continue to speak out, we will learn more about them. As humans, we cannot really lie; we attempt to and it is seen. We attempt to conceal but when we speak, information flows anyway.

The sexual abuse could have been by a brother, which may cause the parents to cover up in fear of losing another child, but sexual abuse by another adult (uncle) would not likely be enough to unite them in conspiracy. A 14 year old boy should not be sleeping with his 6 year old sister, especially when they claim to have had a room for her. It is shocking that NBC did not ask about this, or about so many other topics, including the polygraph.

They appear like loving parents. If they are loving parents, they must be united in cover up, for a reason. I don't see them being united if the uncle, for example, was sexually abusing Isabel, and killed her out of fear of discovery. "

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2012/05/isabel-celis-parents-conspire-to.html

Well my husband, and our mexican world, always refers to our kids, and many other kids too, as 'bonito' and 'guapop' which is very typical: beautiful, good looking.

So Sergio is mucho creepy but I am keeping this cultural dimension in the back of my mind too.

I got the feeling from the GMA interview that when they were describing the last time they saw isa that as they were talking about that night they were recalling the face of a deceased child- that is just me by the way.

His comments to the kidnappers: "look at her she is beautiful"
the 'kidnappers' have the deceased isabel, she is with them to look at.
again that is me.
i entered reading those interviews with the presupposition that isa was already dead.

i need to review interview transcripts.

was she in the same bed as one brother?

was she sharing a room because justin ahd been living there too until recently?

what are the background?

I would not put a pre-adolescent/adolescent child in a room continuously with a sibling the same sex for many reasons.

but i came from orthodox jewish background and there is more separation of the sexes.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:30 am

Stolat wrote:
Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:
Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!

I would tend to think the same.

I believe the ear witnesses perception of their barking as out of the norm and very agitated.

The Master Bed and Bath are also at the back of the house where the back yard is, which is where I am assuming they were.

Could the dogs travel around with house within the walls?

I am not sure why the dogs would be outside at 6:30am in the morning unless Becky let them out when she woke up. If so, then that tells us that Becky was awake at the time the neighbor heard men's voices at the side wall. If Becky were awake and had the lights on, shower going, hair dryer going, etc then that's pretty damn ballsey of someone to enter the home knowing/hearing someone is awake and getting ready for work ??? I just can't even fathom.

But my initial take from the neighbor's interview was that the Celis dogs could be heard barking from within the house, not outside.

Same take too.
The question is:

BECKY WHAT IS THE DEAL ABOUT YOUR DOGS THAT MORNING?
WHAT TIME DID YOU REALLY LEAVE FOR WORK?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 11:35 am

Tamta wrote:
was she in the same bed as one brother?

was she sharing a room because justin ahd been living there too until recently?

what are the background?

I would not put a pre-adolescent/adolescent child in a room continuously with a sibling the same sex for many reasons.

but i came from orthodox jewish background and there is more separation of the sexes.

That's a good observation about Justin. I too thought it was weird that they said she slept in same room with her teenage and pre-teen brothers. A big taboo in my family - we have a very large family and we all share the same principle - that while the kids are trusted, you also don't encourage anything or create the right conditions for curiosity to go astray. It makes sense that Isa was sleeping in the room with the brothers because Justin was sleeping in her room. So does that mean Justin was no longer there if Isa had moved back to her room?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 11:40 am

Stolat wrote:
Tamta wrote:
was she in the same bed as one brother?

was she sharing a room because justin ahd been living there too until recently?

what are the background?

I would not put a pre-adolescent/adolescent child in a room continuously with a sibling the same sex for many reasons.

but i came from orthodox jewish background and there is more separation of the sexes.

That's a good observation about Justin. I too thought it was weird that they said she slept in same room with her teenage and pre-teen brothers. A big taboo in my family - we have a very large family and we all share the same principle - that while the kids are trusted, you also don't encourage anything or create the right conditions for curiosity to go astray. It makes sense that Isa was sleeping in the room with the brothers because Justin was sleeping in her room. So does that mean Justin was no longer there if Isa had moved back to her room?

of course the link is gone (RIP HM)
but there was a refernce to him having lived there but it seemed to infer that he was living someone else now.

Someone posted his FB status about moving to AZ from FL(??)
That would give some idea about how recently and how long he would have been at the Celis'.

IF that was the first night that she was in her room, maybe his moving out was rather recent and the transition to her room was underway.

becky was reported as saying that night that only "immediate family" was there.
i never took that to mean just her, sergio and the kids.


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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 11:44 am

Tamta wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:
Bmore wrote:What if she didn't hear the dogs because she was either in the shower or blow drying her hair?



well I can only speak for at my house!! If my dogs bark more than 3 times someone is in trouble... and I can hear them over the exhaust fan and my blow dryer!

I would tend to think the same.

I believe the ear witnesses perception of their barking as out of the norm and very agitated.

The Master Bed and Bath are also at the back of the house where the back yard is, which is where I am assuming they were.

Could the dogs travel around with house within the walls?

I am not sure why the dogs would be outside at 6:30am in the morning unless Becky let them out when she woke up. If so, then that tells us that Becky was awake at the time the neighbor heard men's voices at the side wall. If Becky were awake and had the lights on, shower going, hair dryer going, etc then that's pretty damn ballsey of someone to enter the home knowing/hearing someone is awake and getting ready for work ??? I just can't even fathom.

But my initial take from the neighbor's interview was that the Celis dogs could be heard barking from within the house, not outside.

Same take too.
The question is:

BECKY WHAT IS THE DEAL ABOUT YOUR DOGS THAT MORNING?
WHAT TIME DID YOU REALLY LEAVE FOR WORK?

Yes, my question to add would be what time was she EXPECTED to show up for work versus what time did she actually get there??

In other words, did her shift start at 8am but she showed up at 7am instead?

Nurses do have awfully early shift times - I have 3 nurses in my family and they go to work at the crack of dawn (another reason I'm not a nurse! Sleep not a morning person! So it's possible that 7am was her expected shift - but still those answers would help frame the circumstances of what she knew.

I believe her when she says she wished she had checked on her. I wished she had too because very likely Isa was already gone by the time Becky left for work and Becky would have been the one to discover her missing. I don't believe at the time Becky left for work that she knew in advance that morning that something had happened to Isa.

I do believe Becky is not exactly sure what happened that night either. They still will not release the details of who put Isa to bed and who last saw her that night.

Considering they would not release whether Becky saw her that morning (we ALL suspected the answer was "No" and we were right, according to Becky's 911 call) then we can apply the same logic to this factoid as well -- that very likely the fact that police refuse to say who put her to bed or who saw her last follows the same sensitive and damning information as the question regarding who saw her in the morning -- and following that logic I conclude that Becky also did not last see her that night either. If Becky had to be at work very early -- it's very possible she went to bed before the rest of the family.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Calypso on Wed May 16, 2012 12:34 pm

In our home, usually the first person up is the one who lets the dogs out. Razz
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 12:38 pm

Calypso wrote:In our home, usually the first person up is the one who lets the dogs out. Razz

I wish that were the case for my daughter lol!

no one has reported that the dogs were outside the home - at least not yet
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Calypso on Wed May 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Stolat wrote:
Calypso wrote:In our home, usually the first person up is the one who lets the dogs out. Razz

I wish that were the case for my daughter lol!

no one has reported that the dogs were outside the home - at least not yet

You figure whatever time they got in the night before, the dogs were let out. Giving them (me) a generous window, 12am, and again, 6am, that's 6 hours the dogs were holding it.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Sergio said they all had their showers the night before...if that included Becky then she would not be in the shower that morning also or blow drying her hair. Also, when i worked in the medical field i did not shower before work because i would always shower as soon as i got home to get all "germs" off. I would think Becky did the same since she is so concerned with toxins used from crime lab.
The whole dog barking/not barking is definitely an issue. so far the only person who has come forward to say the Celis' dogs were barking was that one neighbor...i can hear dogs barking from 3 houses down. I can also hear my dogs regardless of the noise level in my home, but i do have a smaller home.
AND...i did not hear one dog bark during the 911 calls, with all the people coming and going, police cars arriving...why did we not hear dogs bark? were they locked up? i would think we could still hear something in the background.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by justanopinion on Wed May 16, 2012 12:50 pm

Honeysage wrote:Sergio said they all had their showers the night before...if that included Becky then she would not be in the shower that morning also or blow drying her hair. Also, when i worked in the medical field i did not shower before work because i would always shower as soon as i got home to get all "germs" off. I would think Becky did the same since she is so concerned with toxins used from crime lab.
The whole dog barking/not barking is definitely an issue. so far the only person who has come forward to say the Celis' dogs were barking was that one neighbor...i can hear dogs barking from 3 houses down. I can also hear my dogs regardless of the noise level in my home, but i do have a smaller home.
AND...i did not hear one dog bark during the 911 calls, with all the people coming and going, police cars arriving...why did we not hear dogs bark? were they locked up? i would think we could still hear something in the background.


really good question honeysage... especially since it sounded like the call from Sergio JR.. was from outside the home (he needed a ride back to ask what Isa was wearing) and Becky was outside (from 911 call from Sergio SR) youngest was in the garage waiting for mom and PD... so where were the dogs??
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 12:54 pm

Calypso wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Calypso wrote:In our home, usually the first person up is the one who lets the dogs out. Razz

I wish that were the case for my daughter lol!

no one has reported that the dogs were outside the home - at least not yet

You figure whatever time they got in the night before, the dogs were let out. Giving them (me) a generous window, 12am, and again, 6am, that's 6 hours the dogs were holding it.

Isa got a puppy for Christmas, don't know the exact age...but it would seem this dog would need a few extra potty breaks as opposed to an adult dog.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 1:11 pm

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx


Case Number: M-1041-CR-12033020
Title: ST OF AZ VS CELIS SERGIO DAVID

6/4/2012 CAL: PRETRIAL-ASSIGNED
_____________________________________________

i'm not good at legal mumbo-jumbo BUT it is so odd to me that Sergio plead not guilty to the dog charges considering his daughter was missing at the time he went to court. because he now has a pretrial date set...wouldn't it be easier to plead guilty-pay the fines and then move on with finding your daughter?
and i have never known anyone who had to go to court at all for their dogs, what does it take in Arizona for that to happen? usually you get fines-a certain period of time to produce vaccination/spaying records and that's it.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:12 pm

Stolat wrote:
Calypso wrote:In our home, usually the first person up is the one who lets the dogs out. Razz

I wish that were the case for my daughter lol!

no one has reported that the dogs were outside the home - at least not yet

_________
Snipped from above
BBM

They still will not release the details of who put Isa to bed and who last saw her that night.

Considering they would not release whether Becky saw her that morning (we ALL suspected the answer was "No" and we were right, according to Becky's 911 call) then we can apply the same logic to this factoid as well -- that very likely the fact that police refuse to say who put her to bed or who saw her last follows the same sensitive and damning information as the question regarding who saw her in the morning

Completely.
Thanks for highlighting this point.

This may explain why we have not heard any statements regarding any specifics about the morning timeline.

LE may have told the Celis' and the media not to speak about it as it touches upon investigatory premise and naturally leads to conclusions.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:26 pm

justanopinion wrote:
Honeysage wrote:Sergio said they all had their showers the night before...if that included Becky then she would not be in the shower that morning also or blow drying her hair. Also, when i worked in the medical field i did not shower before work because i would always shower as soon as i got home to get all "germs" off. I would think Becky did the same since she is so concerned with toxins used from crime lab.
The whole dog barking/not barking is definitely an issue. so far the only person who has come forward to say the Celis' dogs were barking was that one neighbor...i can hear dogs barking from 3 houses down. I can also hear my dogs regardless of the noise level in my home, but i do have a smaller home.
AND...i did not hear one dog bark during the 911 calls, with all the people coming and going, police cars arriving...why did we not hear dogs bark? were they locked up? i would think we could still hear something in the background.


really good question honeysage... especially since it sounded like the call from Sergio JR.. was from outside the home (he needed a ride back to ask what Isa was wearing) and Becky was outside (from 911 call from Sergio SR) youngest was in the garage waiting for mom and PD... so where were the dogs??

Yes good questions.

Are there really no other witnesses to dog commotion??

Now why did Becky leave do early for an 8 am shift.
What time exactly did she leave?
Was she near the front of the house or garage getting ready to get in her car close to 640am mark to drive to work?

Again, why so early ?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 1:37 pm

Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:
Honeysage wrote:Sergio said they all had their showers the night before...if that included Becky then she would not be in the shower that morning also or blow drying her hair. Also, when i worked in the medical field i did not shower before work because i would always shower as soon as i got home to get all "germs" off. I would think Becky did the same since she is so concerned with toxins used from crime lab.
The whole dog barking/not barking is definitely an issue. so far the only person who has come forward to say the Celis' dogs were barking was that one neighbor...i can hear dogs barking from 3 houses down. I can also hear my dogs regardless of the noise level in my home, but i do have a smaller home.
AND...i did not hear one dog bark during the 911 calls, with all the people coming and going, police cars arriving...why did we not hear dogs bark? were they locked up? i would think we could still hear something in the background.


really good question honeysage... especially since it sounded like the call from Sergio JR.. was from outside the home (he needed a ride back to ask what Isa was wearing) and Becky was outside (from 911 call from Sergio SR) youngest was in the garage waiting for mom and PD... so where were the dogs??

Yes good questions.

Are there really no other witnesses to dog commotion??

Now why did Becky leave do early for an 8 am shift.
What time exactly did she leave?
Was she near the front of the house or garage getting ready to get in her car close to 640am mark to drive to work?

Again, why so early ?

I don't have any sources that say exactly what time she showed up for work, do you? I do not know that 8am is an official time or if that was just speculated by commenters.

We do have on record that Becky left the home at 7am. That much has been stated in her 911 call. Her clinic is less than 10 min away from her home.

But I have not seen anywhere what her official start time of her shift was.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 1:43 pm

http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 1:44 pm

Tamta-
The drive to her work could be done in less than 10 minutes IIRC.

Because of the 911 call where Sergio senior said WE several times in talking about that morning, I think it is possible the mother WAS at the home when the house was waking.

Re showers: The father stated they ALL took showers before going to bed. I would imagine, after attending a baseball game, everyone was dusty and would shower prior to bedtime. They had a busy morning coming up so going to bed clean would assist in moving the family along in the morning.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 1:47 pm

Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.
So he is still able to influence the kids just by being in the vicinity?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 pm

Freckles wrote:Tamta-
The drive to her work could be done in less than 10 minutes IIRC.

Because of the 911 call where Sergio senior said WE several times in talking about that morning, I think it is possible the mother WAS at the home when the house was waking.

Re showers: The father stated they ALL took showers before going to bed. I would imagine, after attending a baseball game, everyone was dusty and would shower prior to bedtime. They had a busy morning coming up so going to bed clean would assist in moving the family along in the morning.

I don't think that's possible - even Becky's boss went on tv (I watched the video) and said Becky was at work "very early" that morning. The family woke at 8am. Becky reportedly left at 7 and her boss seems to have confirmed that.

I think WE was in reference to his sons only. Notice in the 911 calls Sergio keeps referring to his sons -- "my sons searched the house.... my sons searched the yard..."

He tends to want to include himself in with his sons and say "We" as a way to reinforce his story.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 pm

Freckles wrote:
Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.
So he is still able to influence the kids just by being in the vicinity?

i don't think Becky and the boys are back at the house...on Sunday she was picking stuff up at the house, so i don't know where they are living currently.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:51 pm

Freckles wrote:Tamta-
The drive to her work could be done in less than 10 minutes IIRC.

Because of the 911 call where Sergio senior said WE several times in talking about that morning, I think it is possible the mother WAS at the home when the house was waking.

Re showers: The father stated they ALL took showers before going to bed. I would imagine, after attending a baseball game, everyone was dusty and would shower prior to bedtime. They had a busy morning coming up so going to bed clean would assist in moving the family along in the morning.

Freckles,

what if the adults (males) never went to bed?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 1:54 pm

Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.

the article continues on to say:
"The talk in the neighborhood though revolves around the 911 calls."

....I BET it is. I can hear it now. Likely their reaction is the same to all of us here.


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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:54 pm

Stolat wrote:
Freckles wrote:Tamta-
The drive to her work could be done in less than 10 minutes IIRC.

Because of the 911 call where Sergio senior said WE several times in talking about that morning, I think it is possible the mother WAS at the home when the house was waking.

Re showers: The father stated they ALL took showers before going to bed. I would imagine, after attending a baseball game, everyone was dusty and would shower prior to bedtime. They had a busy morning coming up so going to bed clean would assist in moving the family along in the morning.

I don't think that's possible - even Becky's boss went on tv (I watched the video) and said Becky was at work "very early" that morning. The family woke at 8am. Becky reportedly left at 7 and her boss seems to have confirmed that.

I think WE was in reference to his sons only. Notice in the 911 calls Sergio keeps referring to his sons -- "my sons searched the house.... my sons searched the yard..."

He tends to want to include himself in with his sons and say "We" as a way to reinforce his story.

I think the 'we' is for the sons in the 911 call too.

Becky she left for work at 7am that Saturday on 911 call, and the VP on the news did say that she had arrived early that day. (give or take a few)

And they do live close to the hospital i remember from the google drive from the HM thread.

dogs at 630
becky in car at 700.

what is going on between 630-700?


Last edited by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 pm

Stolat wrote:
Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.

the article continues on to say:
"The talk in the neighborhood though revolves around the 911 calls."

....I BET it is. I can hear it now. Likely their reaction is the same to all of us here.



I wonder if the neighbors have anything to add,
like the church and by the way

whose car was Sergio JR in???
"someone is going to give me aride home". 911 tran
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 1:57 pm

Tamta wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Freckles wrote:Tamta-
The drive to her work could be done in less than 10 minutes IIRC.

Because of the 911 call where Sergio senior said WE several times in talking about that morning, I think it is possible the mother WAS at the home when the house was waking.

Re showers: The father stated they ALL took showers before going to bed. I would imagine, after attending a baseball game, everyone was dusty and would shower prior to bedtime. They had a busy morning coming up so going to bed clean would assist in moving the family along in the morning.

I don't think that's possible - even Becky's boss went on tv (I watched the video) and said Becky was at work "very early" that morning. The family woke at 8am. Becky reportedly left at 7 and her boss seems to have confirmed that.

I think WE was in reference to his sons only. Notice in the 911 calls Sergio keeps referring to his sons -- "my sons searched the house.... my sons searched the yard..."

He tends to want to include himself in with his sons and say "We" as a way to reinforce his story.

I think the 'we' is for the sons in the 911 call too.

I think we have the link in this thread, but Becky is reported to have arrived or clocked in for work at 7am that Saturday, and the VP on the news did say that she had arrived early that day.

7 is early for an 8 am shift.
at the latest she would have to be at her station at 640am.
So she is there 40 minutes early apparently.

And they do live close to the hospital i remember from the google drive from the HM thread.

But Tamta - I don't have any article that says her shift started at 8am. In fact the only reference to 8am in any article is the time Isa was discovered missing. It would be helpful if I could find something but all my links are trapped over at THM. For all we know her shift started at 7:30. Maybe it did start at 8:00am and she got there early to eat breakfast. My aunt does that - she goes in early to eat at the cafeteria since she gets a discount.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Honeysage on Wed May 16, 2012 1:59 pm

Tamta wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.

the article continues on to say:
"The talk in the neighborhood though revolves around the 911 calls."

....I BET it is. I can hear it now. Likely their reaction is the same to all of us here.



I wonder if the neighbors have anything to add,
like the church and by the way

whose car was Sergio JR in???
"someone is going to give me aride home". 911 tran

the fact that he would send his son, even at 14 years of age, around the neighborhood when his daughter has been possibly abducted is absolutely insane to me...my kids would not leave my site. and then this boy jumps into basically, a stranger's vehicle to get a ride home. i guess "stranger danger" was not a big topic in that household.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by Tamta on Wed May 16, 2012 2:00 pm

Stolat wrote:
Tamta wrote:
Stolat wrote:



I don't think that's possible - even Becky's boss went on tv (I watched the video) and said Becky was at work "very early" that morning. The family woke at 8am. Becky reportedly left at 7 and her boss seems to have confirmed that.

I think WE was in reference to his sons only. Notice in the 911 calls Sergio keeps referring to his sons -- "my sons searched the house.... my sons searched the yard..."

He tends to want to include himself in with his sons and say "We" as a way to reinforce his story.

I think the 'we' is for the sons in the 911 call too.

I think we have the link in this thread, but Becky is reported to have arrived or clocked in for work at 7am that Saturday, and the VP on the news did say that she had arrived early that day.

7 is early for an 8 am shift.
at the latest she would have to be at her station at 640am.
So she is there 40 minutes early apparently.

And they do live close to the hospital i remember from the google drive from the HM thread.

But Tamta - I don't have any article that says her shift started at 8am. In fact the only reference to 8am in any article is the time Isa was discovered missing. It would be helpful if I could find something but all my links are trapped over at THM. For all we know her shift started at 7:30. Maybe it did start at 8:00am and she got there early to eat breakfast. My aunt does that - she goes in early to eat at the cafeteria since she gets a discount.

the 8 am shift time was reported early in the investigation by LE IIRC.
Links on HM thread i can dig it up a bit later on laptop.

Sergio was reported calling 911 at 814 by LE too.

Now we know there was more than one call.
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Tamta

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Post by justanopinion on Wed May 16, 2012 2:01 pm

Tamta wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Honeysage wrote:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor
Latest Update Neighbors have mixed feelings about search for Isabel

Sergio, Isa's father, is staying up the street at his mother's home. Neighbors say you can see him coming and going late at night or early in the morning, otherwise, they don't see him much.

the article continues on to say:
"The talk in the neighborhood though revolves around the 911 calls."

....I BET it is. I can hear it now. Likely their reaction is the same to all of us here.



I wonder if the neighbors have anything to add,
like the church and by the way

whose car was Sergio JR in???
"someone is going to give me aride home". 911 tran



I find that part very confusing... went up the street to ask if anyone saw Isa... according to the one vendor (sorry link at HM) maybe he wasn't walking when looking maybe someone drove him? maybe someone heard him asking and offered the use of the cell... and then drove him... (okay so that one is BS) VERY VERY ODD
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

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