George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Twinkle on Wed May 16, 2012 9:39 am

Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.
I can think of a few reasons why Trayvon's injuries to his hands might not be considered defense wounds:
1) We would tend to think of the person with the most injuries as being on the receiving end of the beating, and the one with the least amount of injury as the one who delivered the beating.
2) The only eyewitness I know of who was able to describe the struggle between TM and GZ with any amount of detail firmly states that TM was on top beating up GZ, who was on the bottom.

I would not assume that the prosecution would describe Trayvon's injuries to his hands as defense wounds. Their rationale for charging GZ with second-degree murder has less to do with who attacked first than the fact that they believe GZ inappropriately used deadly force to end the confrontation, as I understand it.

Gizmo711 wrote:I still would like to knoe exactly what time that Zimmerman went to the hospital the next day to be examined? Was it after he found out that Trayvon had every right to be where he was?
I'm pretty sure he went to his family doctor, not the hospital.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 9:55 am

I don't think any of us are surprised by the fact that GZ had some injuries or that Trayvon had some injuries to his hands from this altercation. What a jury will have to decide is whether GZ's conduct was reasonable? It is simple to me.

GZ made a conscious decision to arm himself and go after an unknown individual, based on a wholly unfounded and statistically unlikely assumption that the unknown individual was a threat. I believe GZ had his gun drawn. To me, it's common sense. It doesn’t matter who you are, if you’re out in the dark with a suspected criminal lurking about, and you’ve got a gun handy, you’re going to make sure that thing is ready to go.

It is not “reasonable” to stalk your neighborhood at night, while carrying a deadly weapon, monitoring your neighbors, judging their activities, and deliberately creating a situation where a physical altercation might occur — a physical altercation that, due to the presence of your weapon, carries a high risk of turning into a fatal encounter for someone?

GZ had every right to call 911 and report a “suspicious” person, even if he was likely making biased judgments in what he thought qualified as “suspicious.”

But GZ had no right to pursue, while armed, a neighbor whom he believed to be a criminal without any justification for such belief. Someone chasing you through the dark is a threat — and GZ had no special right to harass and threaten his neighbors by randomly pursuing them their own neighborhood.

Pursuing a stranger through the dark, while armed, is not a neutral event. It is an aggressive act against another human being. Ignoring any events that occurred after that, GZ was the aggressor who deliberately put another human being in fear of their personal safety.

We don’t know for sure how the physical altercation that lead to Trayvon’s death was initiated. But, and I believe I said this earlier, we do know, as confirmed fact, that the entire encounter between the two started because GZ grabbed a gun and ran out of his truck to chase after a scared neighborhood kid. Even if Trayvon turned into a ninja and suckerpunched GZ from behind, GZ initiated the violent threats — you’re not a “victim” just because you lose a fight that you started. And that's not just me saying so, Florida case law states this. You cannot start a fight and because you are losing it, pull a weapon and kill someone.

Add in the fact that GZ has three arrests for initiating violence against others, including against both a policeman and a prior girlfriend, and add in the fact that he was angry and cursing at the “f**cking punk/coon/goon” that "these assholes always get away" as he chased after him in the dark… Well. It’s pretty clear which way the character evidence is going to point, when it comes to the question of who started the physical fight.

For sure, GZ acted with gross recklessness in arming himself and following a neighborhood kid on foot. That’s a threat, plain and simple — anyone is going to be made extremely uneasy, at a bare minimum, by that behavior. By deliberately creating a situation where that encounter could occur, and by then failing to use all non-deadly methods of escape, he committed manslaughter. And if the prosecution can show that GZ had his gun drawn, or that he had the presence of mind to understand Trayvon was yelling for help in desperation at the time that GZ shot him, and then lied about it, that is enough to bump it to murder 2.

I strongly believe it was Trayvon screaming for help. In which case, “scuffling and pushing” is an utterly absurd justification for killing someone who is begging for their life.

Why would Trayvon have been yelling for help? Best explanation is that he saw the gun or saw GZ trying to draw it. Trayvon freaks out, afraid that GZ’s going to shoot him, realizes he’s in a fight for his life — and then starts screaming, begging for intervention. One possible explanation for why there did not appear to be much movement while the two were fighting is that after Trayvon saw the gun, he was trying to hold GZ’s hands down. He may have managed to pin GZ, partially, while GZ has the gun out or half out, but once he’s managed that, he’s out of options. Trayvon screams frantically for help because he can’t get out of the encounter without help — soon as he tries to move, GZ’s hands are free and he is able to shoot Trayvon.

Why would GZ have been yelling for help? The explanation seems to be that he was getting his head banged into concrete. But this explanation is not supported by any physical evidence, either of the arrangement of the crime scene or of GZ’s injuries. Also, the “help” screams never get cut off until the very end, when the shot is fired. If GZ is yelling help while his head is being punched, you’d expect to hear “heeeeelll—” and then break off as he bashed down. It doesn’t happen. Instead, the only cut-off scream of help is the one that is cut off as the shot is fired.

Given the fact GZ was responsible for initiating an armed pursuit of his victim, something more than “holy shit my head is grazing the sidewalk!!!” was required before he could justify his decision to kill someone. JMHO folks.


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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 10:07 am

Gizmo711 wrote:personally, I wouldn't care if Zimmerman had to be carried to the ER on that night, it doesn't prove contrary to the obvious. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon and Trayvon had every right to defend himself. Why would it be consistant with self defense? Trayvon didn't follow Zimmerman, Zimmerman came after Trayvon and Trayvon had every right to fight for HIS life.

If Zimmerman claims (which he has stated) that Trayvon tried to get his gun, than it's obvious that Trayvon DID see the gun, which would make it obvious that Trayvon was SHG.

I would also like to know the time of day (the next day) that Zimmerman went to the hospital. With these type of injuries I would think that he would have been taken by ambulance that same night.

Also, the report shows that the ER doctor advised Zimmerman to see a psyche, gee did the doctor pick up on something? Just by Zimmerman vomiting wouldn't suggest to the doctor that he needed to see a psyche. People vomit after a car accident, or a fall.

By no means does this show self defence on Zimmermans part, but more so on Trayvons part. IF, Trayvon beat Zimmerman, he well deserved it and Trayvon should certainly be exonerated by SYG law, which would put Zimmerman back in the seat of murder two.

BBM -

Morning Gizzmo. Very Happy I suspect the doctor was thinking that GZ was suffering from PTSD as a result of having killed someone and that is why he suggested the psyche. Although I tend to agree with you - he suffers from paranoia at a very minimum.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 10:28 am

CherokeeNative wrote:I don't think any of us are surprised by the fact that GZ had some injuries or that Trayvon had some injuries to his hands from this altercation. What a jury will have to decide is whether GZ's conduct was reasonable? It is simple to me.

GZ made a conscious decision to arm himself and go after an unknown individual, based on a wholly unfounded and statistically unlikely assumption that the unknown individual was a threat. I believe GZ had his gun drawn. To me, it's common sense. It doesn’t matter who you are, if you’re out in the dark with a suspected criminal lurking about, and you’ve got a gun handy, you’re going to make sure that thing is ready to go.

It is not “reasonable” to stalk your neighborhood at night, while carrying a deadly weapon, monitoring your neighbors, judging their activities, and deliberately creating a situation where a physical altercation might occur — a physical altercation that, due to the presence of your weapon, carries a high risk of turning into a fatal encounter for someone?

GZ had every right to call 911 and report a “suspicious” person, even if he was likely making biased judgments in what he thought qualified as “suspicious.”

But GZ had no right to pursue, while armed, a neighbor whom he believed to be a criminal without any justification for such belief. Someone chasing you through the dark is a threat — and GZ had no special right to harass and threaten his neighbors by randomly pursuing them their own neighborhood.

Pursuing a stranger through the dark, while armed, is not a neutral event. It is an aggressive act against another human being. Ignoring any events that occurred after that, GZ was the aggressor who deliberately put another human being in fear of their personal safety.

We don’t know for sure how the physical altercation that lead to Trayvon’s death was initiated. But, and I believe I said this earlier, we do know, as confirmed fact, that the entire encounter between the two started because GZ grabbed a gun and ran out of his truck to chase after a scared neighborhood kid. Even if Trayvon turned into a ninja and suckerpunched GZ from behind, GZ initiated the violent threats — you’re not a “victim” just because you lose a fight that you started. And that's not just me saying so, Florida case law states this. You cannot start a fight and because you are losing it, pull a weapon and kill someone.

Add in the fact that GZ has three arrests for initiating violence against others, including against both a policeman and a prior girlfriend, and add in the fact that he was angry and cursing at the “f**cking punk/coon/goon” that "these assholes always get away" as he chased after him in the dark… Well. It’s pretty clear which way the character evidence is going to point, when it comes to the question of who started the physical fight.

For sure, GZ acted with gross recklessness in arming himself and following a neighborhood kid on foot. That’s a threat, plain and simple — anyone is going to be made extremely uneasy, at a bare minimum, by that behavior. By deliberately creating a situation where that encounter could occur, and by then failing to use all non-deadly methods of escape, he committed manslaughter. And if the prosecution can show that GZ had his gun drawn, or that he had the presence of mind to understand Trayvon was yelling for help in desperation at the time that GZ shot him, and then lied about it, that is enough to bump it to murder 2.

I strongly believe it was Trayvon screaming for help. In which case, “scuffling and pushing” is an utterly absurd justification for killing someone who is begging for their life.

Why would Trayvon have been yelling for help? Best explanation is that he saw the gun or saw GZ trying to draw it. Trayvon freaks out, afraid that GZ’s going to shoot him, realizes he’s in a fight for his life — and then starts screaming, begging for intervention. One possible explanation for why there did not appear to be much movement while the two were fighting is that after Trayvon saw the gun, he was trying to hold GZ’s hands down. He may have managed to pin GZ, partially, while GZ has the gun out or half out, but once he’s managed that, he’s out of options. Trayvon screams frantically for help because he can’t get out of the encounter without help — soon as he tries to move, GZ’s hands are free and he is able to shoot Trayvon.

Why would GZ have been yelling for help? The explanation seems to be that he was getting his head banged into concrete. But this explanation is not supported by any physical evidence, either of the arrangement of the crime scene or of GZ’s injuries. Also, the “help” screams never get cut off until the very end, when the shot is fired. If GZ is yelling help while his head is being punched, you’d expect to hear “heeeeelll—” and then break off as he bashed down. It doesn’t happen. Instead, the only cut-off scream of help is the one that is cut off as the shot is fired.

Given the fact GZ was responsible for initiating an armed pursuit of his victim, something more than “holy shit my head is grazing the sidewalk!!!” was required before he could justify his decision to kill someone. JMHO folks.



Excellent summary! Wow. This is what I really liked:

"It is not “reasonable” to stalk your neighborhood at night, while carrying a deadly weapon, monitoring your neighbors, judging their activities, and deliberately creating a situation where a physical altercation might occur — a physical altercation that, due to the presence of your weapon, carries a high risk of turning into a fatal encounter for someone?"
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 10:28 am

Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles as GZ's nose likely attemptin to make contact with trayvon's body.


Last edited by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 10:32 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed May 16, 2012 10:28 am

Twinkle wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.
I can think of a few reasons why Trayvon's injuries to his hands might not be considered defense wounds:
1) We would tend to think of the person with the most injuries as being on the receiving end of the beating, and the one with the least amount of injury as the one who delivered the beating.
2) The only eyewitness I know of who was able to describe the struggle between TM and GZ with any amount of detail firmly states that TM was on top beating up GZ, who was on the bottom.

I would not assume that the prosecution would describe Trayvon's injuries to his hands as defense wounds. Their rationale for charging GZ with second-degree murder has less to do with who attacked first than the fact that they believe GZ inappropriately used deadly force to end the confrontation, as I understand it.

Gizmo711 wrote:I still would like to knoe exactly what time that Zimmerman went to the hospital the next day to be examined? Was it after he found out that Trayvon had every right to be where he was?
I'm pretty sure he went to his family doctor, not the hospital.


There is an old saying (from many years ago) when someone would tell you they were going to beat you up...your response was "and what do you think I'm going to be doing while you are beating me up"? It is a natural instinct to fight with all you have, it's probably something we were all taught as we were growing up.

Zimmerman is following Trayvon, for no reason at all, Trayvon knows he is being followed by this strange man. Was Trayvon just to stand there and take whatever this strange man was ready to dish out? Or was he going to fight this strange man that has been following him all around the complex? I would hope that my son would have fought with all he had. Trayvon did just what his instinct told him to do if he wanted to survive, and that was go down fighting..

If any one of us was being followed by some strange character, I would hope to have something in my hands to hit him with. It is a natural instinct. There is a man in my neighborhood that takes a walk every evening and he carries a golf club...Now why do you think he carry's a golf club? There are no gold courses in this immediate area.

Zimmemran was the pursuer and the pursuer cannot turn around and now claim self defense...it wont wash...

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 10:31 am

Cherokee Nation said:
"Why would Trayvon have been yelling for help? Best explanation is that he saw the gun or saw GZ trying to draw it. Trayvon freaks out, afraid that GZ’s going to shoot him, realizes he’s in a fight for his life — and then starts screaming, begging for intervention. One possible explanation for why there did not appear to be much movement while the two were fighting is that after
Trayvon saw the gun, he was trying to hold GZ’s hands down. He may have managed to pin GZ, partially, while GZ has the gun out or half out, but once he’s managed that, he’s out of options. Trayvon screams frantically for help because he can’t get out of the encounter without help — soon as he tries to move, GZ’s hands are free and he is able to shoot Trayvon."
Yes!
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed May 16, 2012 10:36 am

Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles and there is no reason to deflect GZ's nose from making contact with Trayvon. Just sayin.

I understand what you are saying, but why do they look for skin under finger nails? When a man is attacked, his first instinct whould be to punch his attacker, so the defense wound would be on his knuckle. If he was trying to cover himself from blows, then the defense wounds would be on the arm etc. But in a case where someone is approaching another and makes it known that they are stalking you, I would think that the very first response would be, not to cower, but to fight your attacker off, and one can't fight an attacker off by cover themselves to prevent from being hit.

I guess it would depend on the individual, but when you take a young youth who is not used to being in this type of situation, I would expect him to try and fight off his attacker. Which to me would be considered to be the victim fighting back.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by snowbird on Wed May 16, 2012 10:40 am

Gizmo711 wrote:Whatever took place that night, if Trayvon thru the first punch, if Trayvon broke his nose etc., etc., Trayvon had every right. If I thought I wasn't able to get away from someone following me the next best thing is to fight for your life. If there had been a rock in the vicinity, I wouldn't wrong Trayvon for picking it up and using it against his attacker.

It's very obvious to see what took place here. Zimmerman was following Trayvon for no apparent reason and Trayvon feared for his life. Trayvon tried to make it home without his stalker seeing where he was staying. Zimmerman, was determined to catch Trayvon (for what ever notion he had embedded in his brain), and they met. Trayvon saw the gun (which is why Zimmerman claims that Trayvon tried to get it from him) and Trayvon put up the best fight that he could to protect himself.

Now, had Zimmerman NOT profiled Trayvon and followed him, and ended up chasing him (911 tapes prove that), than this mishap would never have happened. Zimmerman could NOT say he was defending himself against Trayvon under any circumstances. It was Trayvon whom was defending himself against a stalker. So if Zimmerman got beat up, he well deserved it, and he also deserves to be put on trial for murder because he did infact murder this young man who was defending himself against an attacker and just because Trayvon lost the battle with his life does NOT make Zimmerman the hero that he portrays himself as.

And to use a school suspension to justify and portray Trayvon as a bad teenager is ludicrous.
I love your post and I could not say it any better then you have. If someone was following me at night and approached me, I would fight for my life. So I am not surprise he had bruising on his knuckles. The thought the George had a right to defend himself, but Martin didn't boggles my mind.
Also George told police that Martin was circling him while he was in the car. A normal person to me would to notify police of this occurring and not get out of the car with a gun. So no way do I believe his account of Martin attacking him first. He just needed a good story to justify killing Martin.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed May 16, 2012 10:40 am

How many times do we see on the media when someone walks into a store with a bat to hold them up and the clerk ends up beating up the attacker. I see as being the same type of scenerio. A man is following Trayvon for no reason, Trayvon could have thought he was going to be held up or something. When he didn't shake this guy and was confronted face to face, he fought back with what he thought was going to be an attack.

This misunderstanding would have never happened had Zimmerman kept his butt in his truck instead of trying to be a wannabe cop.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 10:44 am

Gizmo711 wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.
I can think of a few reasons why Trayvon's injuries to his hands might not be considered defense wounds:
1) We would tend to think of the person with the most injuries as being on the receiving end of the beating, and the one with the least amount of injury as the one who delivered the beating.
2) The only eyewitness I know of who was able to describe the struggle between TM and GZ with any amount of detail firmly states that TM was on top beating up GZ, who was on the bottom.

I would not assume that the prosecution would describe Trayvon's injuries to his hands as defense wounds. Their rationale for charging GZ with second-degree murder has less to do with who attacked first than the fact that they believe GZ inappropriately used deadly force to end the confrontation, as I understand it.

Gizmo711 wrote:I still would like to knoe exactly what time that Zimmerman went to the hospital the next day to be examined? Was it after he found out that Trayvon had every right to be where he was?
I'm pretty sure he went to his family doctor, not the hospital.


There is an old saying (from many years ago) when someone would tell you they were going to beat you up...your response was "and what do you think I'm going to be doing while you are beating me up"? It is a natural instinct to fight with all you have, it's probably something we were all taught as we were growing up.

Zimmerman is following Trayvon, for no reason at all, Trayvon knows he is being followed by this strange man. Was Trayvon just to stand there and take whatever this strange man was ready to dish out? Or was he going to fight this strange man that has been following him all around the complex? I would hope that my son would have fought with all he had. Trayvon did just what his instinct told him to do if he wanted to survive, and that was go down fighting..

If any one of us was being followed by some strange character, I would hope to have something in my hands to hit him with. It is a natural instinct. There is a man in my neighborhood that takes a walk every evening and he carries a golf club...Now why do you think he carry's a golf club? There are no gold courses in this immediate area.

Zimmemran was the pursuer and the pursuer cannot turn around and now claim self defense...it wont wash...

ITA - and the fact that the can or bottle of iced tea was in Trayvon's jacket pocket tells me Trayvon didn't really have time to contemplate a fight - or he would have used it as leverage to bash GZ upside the head with. I think some of the Hinkies had even thought of that idea before we knew where the iced tea ended up. I believe that Trayvon may have hid in alcoves, etc. trying to shake GZ off his tail, and was taken by complete surprise to have GZ pop up in front of him. Well, you know my theory... GZ was Rambo that night in my opinion and Trayvon was cornered.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 10:53 am

Twinkle wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.
I can think of a few reasons why Trayvon's injuries to his hands might not be considered defense wounds:
1) We would tend to think of the person with the most injuries as being on the receiving end of the beating, and the one with the least amount of injury as the one who delivered the beating.
2) The only eyewitness I know of who was able to describe the struggle between TM and GZ with any amount of detail firmly states that TM was on top beating up GZ, who was on the bottom.

I would not assume that the prosecution would describe Trayvon's injuries to his hands as defense wounds. Their rationale for charging GZ with second-degree murder has less to do with who attacked first than the fact that they believe GZ inappropriately used deadly force to end the confrontation, as I understand it.

Gizmo711 wrote:I still would like to knoe exactly what time that Zimmerman went to the hospital the next day to be examined? Was it after he found out that Trayvon had every right to be where he was?
I'm pretty sure he went to his family doctor, not the hospital.

His former lawyer, Craig Sonner, said that Zimmerman went to the hospital the day after the shooting.

"Zimmerman was treated Feb. 27 at Altamonte Family Practice. A phone call made Tuesday evening to the practice rang unanswered."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/records-detail-george-zimmerman-s-medical-injuries-1.3720537


Altamonte Family Practice

http://www.altamontefamilypractice.com/

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 10:54 am

I have seen it questioned why Trayvon didn't make it home in the few minutes that GZ was looking for him, or why didn't he call 911 himself. Trayvon didn’t know for sure what was going on — from the GF's statements, we know he felt creeped out and worried, but not terrified. People often minimize possible threats out of a desire not to rock the boat, or to cause a fuss over something that very easily could turn out to be nothing. GZ obviously does not have this problem.

He also lost GZ for a period of over a minute, likely giving him a false sense of security, and an assumption that maybe he’d misunderstood what he’d seen.

I find it interesting that gun enthusiasts that are defending GZ are claiming that the fact that they are carrying a deadly weapon can, in itself, gives them a legal entitlement to use deadly force in the event of an altercation, whereas someone who is unarmed in a similar position would not be so permitted?

Gun carriers have a right to shoot first and assess the situation later, whereas someone using their fists only better not defend themselves too strenuously, or else grant the gun carrier the right to shoot them.

Why doesn’t this go both ways? Why does the person with fists who, seeing that the other person has a gun, not get the right to do everything in their power to prevent that gun from being fired at them?

Morally, the blood is still on GZ's hands, no matter the outcome. Had he not wrongly decided a 17 year old kid looked “suspicious,” and pursued him with a gun, and assumed with no evidence beyond his own internal biases that the kid was a criminal, Trayvon wouldn't be but a memory today.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 11:01 am

Gizmo711 wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles and there is no reason to deflect GZ's nose from making contact with Trayvon. Just sayin.

I understand what you are saying, but why do they look for skin under finger nails? When a man is attacked, his first instinct whould be to punch his attacker, so the defense wound would be on his knuckle. If he was trying to cover himself from blows, then the defense wounds would be on the arm etc. But in a case where someone is approaching another and makes it known that they are stalking you, I would think that the very first response would be, not to cower, but to fight your attacker off, and one can't fight an attacker off by cover themselves to prevent from being hit.

I guess it would depend on the individual, but when you take a young youth who is not used to being in this type of situation, I would expect him to try and fight off his attacker. Which to me would be considered to be the victim fighting back.

Gizmo - you know in general I agree with you. I think we are talking semantics here. In my mind we are talking about two different things 1) acting out in defense and 2) defense wounds. I'm just saying that the technical term of defense wounds are those that someone incurs because they are warding off contact from someone else's advancing body parts. Acting out in defense is something completely different. I was just addressing your question about whether or not Trayvon's wounds could be defense wounds. What I am suggesting is that Trayvon acted out in defense by delivering an offensive blow, so his subsequent wounds would not be defense wounds -- they would be offense wounds that were sustained as part of his defensive strategy.

Put it this way. You have two maneuvers to test:

Offensive: you initiate contact with someone else's body -- CHECK - Trayvon initiated a punch to GZ's nose
Defensive: you deflect and try to prevent someone else's body part from making contact with your own body. FAIL - Trayvon was not trying to prevent GZ's nose from hitting him

However - we also have *strategy* and Trayvon may have had a defensive strategy to ward off GZ's advances -- a part of that strategy to get GZ to leave him alone was to deliver an offensive blow to his nose -- that's the difference i'm trying to convey. hope i'm not making it confusing.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 11:12 am

Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles and there is no reason to deflect GZ's nose from making contact with Trayvon. Just sayin.

I understand what you are saying, but why do they look for skin under finger nails? When a man is attacked, his first instinct whould be to punch his attacker, so the defense wound would be on his knuckle. If he was trying to cover himself from blows, then the defense wounds would be on the arm etc. But in a case where someone is approaching another and makes it known that they are stalking you, I would think that the very first response would be, not to cower, but to fight your attacker off, and one can't fight an attacker off by cover themselves to prevent from being hit.

I guess it would depend on the individual, but when you take a young youth who is not used to being in this type of situation, I would expect him to try and fight off his attacker. Which to me would be considered to be the victim fighting back.

Gizmo - you know in general I agree with you. I think we are talking semantics here. In my mind we are talking about two different things 1) acting out in defense and 2) defense wounds. I'm just saying that the technical term of defense wounds are those that someone incurs because they are warding off contact from someone else's advancing body parts. Acting out in defense is something completely different. I was just addressing your question about whether or not Trayvon's wounds could be defense wounds. What I am suggesting is that Trayvon acted out in defense by delivering an offensive blow, so his subsequent wounds would not be defense wounds -- they would be offense wounds that were sustained as part of his defensive strategy.

Put it this way. You have two maneuvers to test:

Offensive: you initiate contact with someone else's body -- CHECK - Trayvon initiated a punch to GZ's nose
Defensive: you deflect and try to prevent someone else's body part from making contact with your own body. FAIL - Trayvon was not trying to prevent GZ's nose from hitting him

However - we also have *strategy* and Trayvon may have had a defensive strategy to ward off GZ's advances -- a part of that strategy to get GZ to leave him alone was to deliver an offensive blow to his nose -- that's the difference i'm trying to convey. hope i'm not making it confusing.

Stolat - I know this wasn't addressed to me - but I am humbly butting in and hope that's okay. I just wanted to say that I completely understand what you are trying to get across. It is like if you track a wild animal and the animal finally feels cornered to the point that they lash out at you - it is a defensive act of self-preservation.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by snowbird on Wed May 16, 2012 11:24 am

The sad part to me is that we can't hear Martin side of the story. We don't know if he saw the gun, or if George put his hand on him first. I would think this teenager was scared as soon as he saw someone watching and following him. We won't hear from him because he is dead.
The only person who can make a statement is George and so far his statements don't make much since.
If you are scared of someone and you think they are up to no good, you don't get out of the car and follow that person or approach them in any way.
You would tell the person in 911 call, he is circling your car and to get help. Better yet he was in a car, he could have started it up and drove away. However he hung up with the operator and got out of his car, this to me is not something you do if your are scared.
He made a comment that they always get away, and George wanted to make sure this one did not get away.
I really can't wait to see the text message.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 11:25 am

What I want to know is why hasn't the media brought a motion for the release of the discovery? Or, have they received it and still reviewing it and only reporting it piece-meal? I just didn't expect them to be so compliant with O'Mara's desire to not have it released until he had the opportunity to review it all - and as someone mentioned up thread - he doesn't appear to be in too big of a hurry to do. Am I missing something?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by snowbird on Wed May 16, 2012 11:33 am

CherokeeNative wrote:What I want to know is why hasn't the media brought a motion for the release of the discovery? Or, have they received it and still reviewing it and only reporting it piece-meal? I just didn't expect them to be so compliant with O'Mara's desire to not have it released until he had the opportunity to review it all - and as someone mentioned up thread - he doesn't appear to be in too big of a hurry to do. Am I missing something?
I thought in the Anthony case that the defense got de
discovery and then the public got it 2 weeks later, so the defense could file to keep something out of the public hand. Of course, I could be wrong, but if the press does not have the discovery then how did the know about Martins hand.
That would have had to be given from the defense to try to prove George was defending himself.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 11:38 am

CherokeeNative wrote:I have seen it questioned why Trayvon didn't make it home in the few minutes that GZ was looking for him, or why didn't he call 911 himself. Trayvon didn’t know for sure what was going on — from the GF's statements, we know he felt creeped out and worried, but not terrified. People often minimize possible threats out of a desire not to rock the boat, or to cause a fuss over something that very easily could turn out to be nothing. GZ obviously does not have this problem.

He also lost GZ for a period of over a minute, likely giving him a false sense of security, and an assumption that maybe he’d misunderstood what he’d seen.

I find it interesting that gun enthusiasts that are defending GZ are claiming that the fact that they are carrying a deadly weapon can, in itself, gives them a legal entitlement to use deadly force in the event of an altercation, whereas someone who is unarmed in a similar position would not be so permitted?

Gun carriers have a right to shoot first and assess the situation later, whereas someone using their fists only better not defend themselves too strenuously, or else grant the gun carrier the right to shoot them.

Why doesn’t this go both ways? Why does the person with fists who, seeing that the other person has a gun, not get the right to do everything in their power to prevent that gun from being fired at them?

Morally, the blood is still on GZ's hands, no matter the outcome. Had he not wrongly decided a 17 year old kid looked “suspicious,” and pursued him with a gun, and assumed with no evidence beyond his own internal biases that the kid was a criminal, Trayvon wouldn't be but a memory today.


Before Zimmerman's arrest, his alleged injuries were widely debated, his father and his brother went to the media to say that Trayvon had brutally assaulted him, broke his nose, and bashed his head against the sidewalk, supposedly he was beaten nearly unconscious, but he was still charged with second degree murder.

We never heard about Zimmerman's Medical records until O'Mara, in a very histrionic manner, introduced them to the court during the bond hearing.

We haven't seen/heard yet any of the evidence that was collected during the investigation, except for Zimmerman's 911 call, Zimmerman's police video, and the recordings of witnesses who reported the shooting.

I would like to see the Police and the Paramedics' official reports, the crime scene photos of the victim and of the shooter, and the videos that were recorded on that particular night. There should a video of Zimmerman exiting the police station and video recordings of his police interviews.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by jacct on Wed May 16, 2012 11:43 am

CherokeeNative wrote:What I want to know is why hasn't the media brought a motion for the release of the discovery? Or, have they received it and still reviewing it and only reporting it piece-meal? I just didn't expect them to be so compliant with O'Mara's desire to not have it released until he had the opportunity to review it all - and as someone mentioned up thread - he doesn't appear to be in too big of a hurry to do. Am I missing something?

Cherokee, The 18th District Court has set up a web page where they are posting all media advisories and public record documents pertaining to State v. Zimmerman (2012-CF-001083-A. This is where they are posting all discovery that has been released. The last thing they posted for public release was on May 9 so the discovery turned over to MOM isn't available yet.

Here's the link: http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 11:51 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:I have seen it questioned why Trayvon didn't make it home in the few minutes that GZ was looking for him, or why didn't he call 911 himself. Trayvon didn’t know for sure what was going on — from the GF's statements, we know he felt creeped out and worried, but not terrified. People often minimize possible threats out of a desire not to rock the boat, or to cause a fuss over something that very easily could turn out to be nothing. GZ obviously does not have this problem.

He also lost GZ for a period of over a minute, likely giving him a false sense of security, and an assumption that maybe he’d misunderstood what he’d seen.

I find it interesting that gun enthusiasts that are defending GZ are claiming that the fact that they are carrying a deadly weapon can, in itself, gives them a legal entitlement to use deadly force in the event of an altercation, whereas someone who is unarmed in a similar position would not be so permitted?

Gun carriers have a right to shoot first and assess the situation later, whereas someone using their fists only better not defend themselves too strenuously, or else grant the gun carrier the right to shoot them.

Why doesn’t this go both ways? Why does the person with fists who, seeing that the other person has a gun, not get the right to do everything in their power to prevent that gun from being fired at them?

Morally, the blood is still on GZ's hands, no matter the outcome. Had he not wrongly decided a 17 year old kid looked “suspicious,” and pursued him with a gun, and assumed with no evidence beyond his own internal biases that the kid was a criminal, Trayvon wouldn't be but a memory today.


Before Zimmerman's arrest, his alleged injuries were widely debated, his father and his brother went to the media to say that Trayvon had brutally assaulted him, broke his nose, and bashed his head against the sidewalk, supposedly he was beaten nearly unconscious, but he was still charged with second degree murder.

We never heard about Zimmerman's Medical records until O'Mara, in a very histrionic manner, introduced them to the court during the bond hearing.

We haven't seen/heard yet any of the evidence that was collected during the investigation, except for Zimmerman's 911 call, Zimmerman's police video, and the recordings of witnesses who reported the shooting.

I would like to see the Police and the Paramedics' official reports, the crime scene photos of the victim and of the shooter, and the videos that were recorded on that particular night. There should a video of Zimmerman exiting the police station and video recordings of his police interviews.

I agree - there is a whole lot that we haven't seen. I have a tendency to formulate my opinions too early probably - but I can't help myself, it's my nature. I just find it interesting that those who are supporting Zimmerman do not take into consideration that Trayvon was not unlike a wild animal that was being hunted and then cornered and the only thing he had was his hands to defend himself. If, GZ had stated that he told Trayvon that he was a neighborhood watch person, I would then question Trayvon's actions if he did throw the first punch - but as far as I know, he never told Trayvon that. I mean, even while I was getting my head supposedly bashed into concrete, I think I would have been yelling, "Hey, hey - I am a neighborhood watch person." In fact, that would have been the first thing out of my mouth when I came upon Trayvon. They had an exchange of words...and even a police officer is required to identify that they are LE before shooting their weapon in most instances - a fact that GZ relied upon in his earlier assault charge. But, I am rambling...sorry.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 11:53 am

Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles as GZ's nose likely attemptin to make contact with trayvon's body.

Stolat, I was just about to weigh in on this but I read your comment & you stated it correctly. In addition, usually, in the cases I have seen, the inside of the wrist area are too considered areas to protect face if in an altercation, bloody knuckles are indicative of an offense, or fight!

This DOES not make Trayvon guilty of anything, but, there was an altercation just as GZ said there was. I am not saying any theory promoted by defense is correct, the BURDEN is on the State to prove to the jury what they think happened, as testified to in the hearing, the State doesn't know who threw the first punch, like it or not, this is going to become relevant as the analyst have said.

Although many think GZ is guilty because he got out of his truck when instructed not to, I am among those that think Trayvon would not be dead if GZ had just done as told. BUT! imo, this is not going to convict GZ, it's the evidence/facts that happened after he got out of the truck that the jury is going to have to reconcile & decide GZ's fate.

I can imagine a lot of scenarios, but the only scenario that matters is the one the State promotes & the defense promotes to convince 12 juror's.





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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Wed May 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:


Before Zimmerman's arrest, his alleged injuries were widely debated, his father and his brother went to the media to say that Trayvon had brutally assaulted him, broke his nose, and bashed his head against the sidewalk, supposedly he was beaten nearly unconscious, but he was still charged with second degree murder.

We never heard about Zimmerman's Medical records until O'Mara, in a very histrionic manner, introduced them to the court during the bond hearing.

We haven't seen/heard yet any of the evidence that was collected during the investigation, except for Zimmerman's 911 call, Zimmerman's police video, and the recordings of witnesses who reported the shooting.

I would like to see the Police and the Paramedics' official reports, the crime scene photos of the victim and of the shooter, and the videos that were recorded on that particular night. There should a video of Zimmerman exiting the police station and video recordings of his police interviews.

--according to the evidence list, we won't see george leaving the police station. there's the feb.26th video of him in the sallyport/and corridor (that we've seen already) as well as one of him in the SPD lobby 3 days later, on feb.29th.

--i definitely want to hear those recorded stmts made by george------and see his phone records/text messages etc.

--it doesn't make sense to me that they have george's cell records feb.20-feb.28th and again from march 7-march 22nd ( what about the missing week of march 1st-7th? why isn't that time frame included? )

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 12:11 pm

art tart wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:What I don't understand is why Trayvons bruises to his hands aren't considered "defense wounds". In any other scenerio, the first thing that is looked for are defense wounds. If a woman is murdered, they look for DNA under her finger nails. In any other attack they always search for defense wounds.

I consider the wounds on Trayvons knuckles "defense wounds" and seeing as the prosecution had these reports in front of them when determining whether to press charges on Zimmerman or not, they also feel that way.

I would think "defense wounds" would be received to the inside of someone's palms or their forearms as they put their hands/arms up to protect themselves. Also possibly to their fingers or fingernails if they are trying to push someone away off of their body.

"Offense" wounds are those received to the parts of the body that *deliver* an offensive maneuver, not a defensive maneuver. Think about Tai Kwon Do or other martial arts -- often they train you on defense positions -- these are positions that repel and deflect other people's body parts from making contact with yours. This would not be your knuckles as GZ's nose likely attemptin to make contact with trayvon's body.

Stolat, I was just about to weigh in on this but I read your comment & you stated it correctly. In addition, usually, in the cases I have seen, the inside of the wrist area are too considered areas to protect face if in an altercation, bloody knuckles are indicative of an offense, or fight!

This DOES not make Trayvon guilty of anything, but, there was an altercation just as GZ said there was. I am not saying any theory promoted by defense is correct, the BURDEN is on the State to prove to the jury what they think happened, as testified to in the hearing, the State doesn't know who threw the first punch, like it or not, this is going to become relevant as the analyst have said.

Although many think GZ is guilty because he got out of his truck when instructed not to, I am among those that think Trayvon would not be dead if GZ had just done as told. BUT! imo, this is not going to convict GZ, it's the evidence/facts that happened after he got out of the truck that the jury is going to have to reconcile & decide GZ's fate.

I can imagine a lot of scenarios, but the only scenario that matters is the one the State promotes & the defense promotes to convince 12 juror's.






I totally agree, it will be up to the jury to determine whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense. In the meantime, we can all speculate about plausible scenarios.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 12:13 pm

ellejay wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:


Before Zimmerman's arrest, his alleged injuries were widely debated, his father and his brother went to the media to say that Trayvon had brutally assaulted him, broke his nose, and bashed his head against the sidewalk, supposedly he was beaten nearly unconscious, but he was still charged with second degree murder.

We never heard about Zimmerman's Medical records until O'Mara, in a very histrionic manner, introduced them to the court during the bond hearing.

We haven't seen/heard yet any of the evidence that was collected during the investigation, except for Zimmerman's 911 call, Zimmerman's police video, and the recordings of witnesses who reported the shooting.

I would like to see the Police and the Paramedics' official reports, the crime scene photos of the victim and of the shooter, and the videos that were recorded on that particular night. There should a video of Zimmerman exiting the police station and video recordings of his police interviews.

--according to the evidence list, we won't see george leaving the police station. there's the feb.26th video of him in the sallyport/and corridor (that we've seen already) as well as one of him in the SPD lobby 3 days later, on feb.29th.

--i definitely want to hear those recorded stmts made by george------and see his phone records/text messages etc.

--it doesn't make sense to me that they have george's cell records feb.20-feb.28th and again from march 7-march 22nd ( what about the missing week of march 1st-7th? why isn't that time frame included? )

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case

Ellejay - just a thought but maybe they had that phone at that time and could physically retrieve the information themselves and needed the records of the other weeks to fill in the gap? completely a guess.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Twinkle on Wed May 16, 2012 12:17 pm

ellejay wrote:--it doesn't make sense to me that they have george's cell records feb.20-feb.28th and again from march 7-march 22nd ( what about the missing week of march 1st-7th? why isn't that time frame included? )

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case
I have seen some speculation that these dates have to do with the text message alluded to at the bond hearing in which GZ said something critical regarding Tracy Martin. I'm not sure if the cell phone records would include the content of text messages, but if so, that is a possibility.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Wed May 16, 2012 12:18 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--a few videos included @ link.

--dan abrams, legal analyst: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

--reporter matt gutman confirms, george was on adderall for ADHD, and that donations are coming into the legal fund at the rate of about $1000/day. (a quick calculation tells me that would cover omara for about 2 and 1/2 hrs.)

--i wonder what evidence report/info omara will "leak" to his ABC pals today?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Wed May 16, 2012 12:22 pm

Twinkle wrote:
ellejay wrote:--it doesn't make sense to me that they have george's cell records feb.20-feb.28th and again from march 7-march 22nd ( what about the missing week of march 1st-7th? why isn't that time frame included? )

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case
I have seen some speculation that these dates have to do with the text message alluded to at the bond hearing in which GZ said something critical regarding Tracy Martin. I'm not sure if the cell phone records would include the content of text messages, but if so, that is a possibility.

--according to the evidence list, it's "cell phone records" for the feb. time period.

--"cell phone records, including text messages, photos, videos etc", for the march time period.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Wed May 16, 2012 12:22 pm

ellejay wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--a few videos included @ link.

--dan abrams, legal analyst: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

--reporter matt gutman confirms, george was on adderall for ADHD, and that donations are coming into the legal fund at the rate of about $1000/day. (a quick calculation tells me that would cover omara for about 2 and 1/2 hrs.)

--i wonder what evidence report/info omara will "leak" to his ABC pals today?


Mental Consequences
High doses of Aderall can also lead to some serious mental symptoms. Such symptoms as feeling hostile and paranoid are common. Patients also report that their personality has changed as a result of Adderal abuse and they can feel depressed and even suicidal. Some patients say that they suffer from auditory and visual hallucinations. Naturally, the patient also develops an addiction after a long term use, and he requires higher dosages of Adderall to get the same effect. Some people start using other drugs, as well.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/234805-what-does-adderall-do-for-people-that-do-not-have-adhd/#ixzz1v3BbCSDi
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 12:38 pm

ellejay wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:


Before Zimmerman's arrest, his alleged injuries were widely debated, his father and his brother went to the media to say that Trayvon had brutally assaulted him, broke his nose, and bashed his head against the sidewalk, supposedly he was beaten nearly unconscious, but he was still charged with second degree murder.

We never heard about Zimmerman's Medical records until O'Mara, in a very histrionic manner, introduced them to the court during the bond hearing.

We haven't seen/heard yet any of the evidence that was collected during the investigation, except for Zimmerman's 911 call, Zimmerman's police video, and the recordings of witnesses who reported the shooting.

I would like to see the Police and the Paramedics' official reports, the crime scene photos of the victim and of the shooter, and the videos that were recorded on that particular night. There should a video of Zimmerman exiting the police station and video recordings of his police interviews.

--according to the evidence list, we won't see george leaving the police station. there's the feb.26th video of him in the sallyport/and corridor (that we've seen already) as well as one of him in the SPD lobby 3 days later, on feb.29th.

--i definitely want to hear those recorded stmts made by george------and see his phone records/text messages etc.

--it doesn't make sense to me that they have george's cell records feb.20-feb.28th and again from march 7-march 22nd ( what about the missing week of march 1st-7th? why isn't that time frame included? )

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case

I have wondered about that also, why isn't that week included? The only possible explanation is that none of the calls that were made during that period of time are relevant to the case, or the evidence was excluded because of privacy issues, e.g., calls between Zimmerman and his lawyers. We just have to wait and see what is the evidence contained in the cell phone records from March 7th trough March 22nd.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Wed May 16, 2012 12:47 pm

There is one aspect of the "fight" itself that I do not get, and hope that the release of evidence might make it clearer.
I thought in his description of the fight, GZ claimed that TM was bashing his head upon concrete, and yet the position in which TM was found (according to several reports) and reports of the event in summary/witness accounts etc indicate that both TM and GZ ended up in the grass. If GZ was able to maneuver the fight onto the grass, how can he claim that he was really in fear for his life? This makes no sense to me.

Also, whoever has stated here that TM was sitting on top of GZ just before the shot, that has not yet been been determined - reports go both ways, plus the report of someone with a white t-shirt, which is neither of them, or could be either.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by One Wonders on Wed May 16, 2012 12:53 pm

This will probably be my only post in this thread.
None of this would have happened if GZ did what he was told to do.
1. We don't need you to follow him. (Trayvon Martin)
2. We don't need you to get out of your vehicle. (Trayvon Martin)
Trayvon Martin's dead because GZ wouldn't do what he was told.
Period.
The rest is just noise.
Thank you.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 12:56 pm

angela_nw wrote:There is one aspect of the "fight" itself that I do not get, and hope that the release of evidence might make it clearer.
I thought in his description of the fight, GZ claimed that TM was bashing his head upon concrete, and yet the position in which TM was found (according to several reports) and reports of the event in summary/witness accounts etc indicate that both TM and GZ ended up in the grass. If GZ was able to maneuver the fight onto the grass, how can he claim that he was really in fear for his life? This makes no sense to me.

Also, whoever has stated here that TM was sitting on top of GZ just before the shot, that has not yet been been determined - reports go both ways, plus the report of someone with a white t-shirt, which is neither of them, or could be either.


Trayvon was found face down in the grass with his hands underneath his body. The witnesses who saw Zimmerman in their backyard, right after the shooting took place, stated that Zimmerman was straddling Trayvon, he had one leg on each side of his body, on his knees, with his hands on his back.

Anderson Cooper Interviews Witnesses To Trayvon Martin Shooting

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Twinkle on Wed May 16, 2012 1:14 pm

angela_nw wrote:Also, whoever has stated here that TM was sitting on top of GZ just before the shot, that has not yet been been determined - reports go both ways, plus the report of someone with a white t-shirt, which is neither of them, or could be either.
That was me. I have not heard of any witness to the struggle between TM and GZ who actually saw both and placed GZ on top before the gun was fired. However, anyone following the case knows that there is a witness ("John") who clearly saw TM sitting on top of GZ during their struggle.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by marcena2 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:15 pm

I hope the video from the clubhouse clears up three of the 'misstatements' from George.

* That TM was acting strangely.
* That TM circled George's vehicle.
* That George was returning to his vehicle when TM approached.

I have a hunch we will see TM walking, George doing some sort of a jack knife U turn to follow him. I really hope that the tape shows George's vehicle parked so we can see which direction he heads off to catch up with Trayvon.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:20 pm

angela_nw wrote:There is one aspect of the "fight" itself that I do not get, and hope that the release of evidence might make it clearer.
I thought in his description of the fight, GZ claimed that TM was bashing his head upon concrete, and yet the position in which TM was found (according to several reports) and reports of the event in summary/witness accounts etc indicate that both TM and GZ ended up in the grass. If GZ was able to maneuver the fight onto the grass, how can he claim that he was really in fear for his life? This makes no sense to me.

Also, whoever has stated here that TM was sitting on top of GZ just before the shot, that has not yet been been determined - reports go both ways, plus the report of someone with a white t-shirt, which is neither of them, or could be either.

I believe that the only one wearing a white tee shirt was Zimmerman, under his red jacket that was opened. Trayvon had on a dark gray hoodie (from what we have heard). I just don't know how Zimmerman will be able to prove self defense when he was obviously the aggressor. The 911 calls are going to be Zimmermans hardest hurdle to get over.

Also, it is being said that donations are coming in at 1000,00 dollars a day for Zimmerman. I trule find this hard to believe and may just be a way of MOM getting to the public to say "see, everyone thinks my client is innocent". Don't forget that MOM was taking this case pro bono when it started, and he can rack up some hours now and then (as in the CA case) in mid stream ask the state for money.

With these lawyers it's all about getting themselves a name as a "high profile" attorney. They will stop at nothing to achieve that goal. Baez stooped so low as to blame the grandfather for the death of the child. You really cannot believe anything they say prior or during the trial.

As for the medical record for Zimmerman, if it's not from the hospital, I will take that with a grain of salt as well. In that tape at the station it sure didn't appear that Zimmerman was in any distress or any bad injuries.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by marcena2 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:23 pm

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mark-OMara-declines-to-comment-on-evidence-released-in-Trayvon-Martins-case--VIDEO-151687845.html

MOM declines to comment but doesn't stop his staff from contacting ABC.

In the CA trial, it was about 15 days from the time the defense got a doc dump to when it was released to the public. Thank goodness in this case it seems that all of the documents were released at once. If we use the former case as a guideline, we may have a release to us around Memorial Day?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed May 16, 2012 1:28 pm

marcena2 wrote:I hope the video from the clubhouse clears up three of the 'misstatements' from George.

* That TM was acting strangely.
* That TM circled George's vehicle.
* That George was returning to his vehicle when TM approached.

I have a hunch we will see TM walking, George doing some sort of a jack knife U turn to follow him. I really hope that the tape shows George's vehicle parked so we can see which direction he heads off to catch up with Trayvon.


That's one tape I too can hardly wait to see. It must not be in the defenses corner. The reason I say that, is if all this was in connection with Zimmermans self defense claim then the prosecution wouldn't even have made an arrest.

Also, doesn't it go back to the night of the incident, didn't Lee state that it fell under the SYG law and that is why they didn't charge Zimmerman with anything. It was based on Zimmerman using the SYG law to justify his actions, so I really don't understand how this can't be used against Zimmerman at the trial, if he decides not to use the SYG law. I would think that would contradict Zimmermans whole story. Just a thought.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 1:40 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
marcena2 wrote:I hope the video from the clubhouse clears up three of the 'misstatements' from George.

* That TM was acting strangely.
* That TM circled George's vehicle.
* That George was returning to his vehicle when TM approached.

I have a hunch we will see TM walking, George doing some sort of a jack knife U turn to follow him. I really hope that the tape shows George's vehicle parked so we can see which direction he heads off to catch up with Trayvon.


That's one tape I too can hardly wait to see. It must not be in the defenses corner. The reason I say that, is if all this was in connection with Zimmermans self defense claim then the prosecution wouldn't even have made an arrest.

Also, doesn't it go back to the night of the incident, didn't Lee state that it fell under the SYG law and that is why they didn't charge Zimmerman with anything. It was based on Zimmerman using the SYG law to justify his actions, so I really don't understand how this can't be used against Zimmerman at the trial, if he decides not to use the SYG law. I would think that would contradict Zimmermans whole story. Just a thought.

The Special Prosecutor showed that she disagreed with Chief lee when she charged Zimmerman with second degree murder. The prosecution must have evidence that doesn't support Zimmerman's claim that he was standing his ground when he killed Trayvon. The video from the clubhouse surveillance camera might contain images that contradict statements that Zimmerman made to the police.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by marcena2 on Wed May 16, 2012 2:18 pm

The cameras at Retreat are on poles...birds eye view. I wonder how many and where?

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/OM_rb6w6L2H/Trayvon+Martin+Shooting+Brings+Florida+Gated/eW2lak24nlB
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 2:40 pm

abc News - Video

Trayvon Martin Case: Zimmerman's Medical Report

Report shows George Zimmerman had a broken nose the night he shot Florida teen.


02:21 | 05/16/2012

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-murder-trial-zimmermans-medical-report-shows-16357205?tab=9482931§ion=1206833
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Wed May 16, 2012 3:51 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:abc News - Video

Trayvon Martin Case: Zimmerman's Medical Report

Report shows George Zimmerman had a broken nose the night he shot Florida teen.


02:21 | 05/16/2012

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-murder-trial-zimmermans-medical-report-shows-16357205?tab=9482931§ion=1206833
I am a skeptic here. How do they know it was broken that night AT that time?
If so, and he felt it was a rightful shooting, why not file the police "incident" report, go directly to the hospital, and send the bill on to the offending party?

IF I was in GZ situation knowing I just might be brought up on murder charges, hey, asking a friend to pop me in the nose and rough up my head a bit would be nothing compared to a murder conviction!

Interesting it is reported GZ had TWO blackened eyes yet they looked normal to me in the PD vids. And while I read a broken nose does not have to bleed all the time, I have seen too many bumped noses that bled like stuck pigs! Amazing there was not a drop of blood on GZ. That just gets me. Especially when you look at the sposed head shot injury. I wonder if he dripped any blood on to Trayvon.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed May 16, 2012 5:07 pm

You don't get black eyes right away, Freckles. They come up the next day. I broke my nose. I didn't go to the hospital. I went to my ENT the next day. I didn't have it fixed either. It isn't a big deal.

Sue the offending party for the bill? Say whaaa? TM? Psst. He was deceased.

Jeepers, didn't you suggest GZ getting someone to crack his head on the siewalk once? Now you have a person hitting him in the nose? You crazy kid! o_O!

affraid
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 5:27 pm

You know the old joke, "did you get the license plate of the truck that hit you?"...well, I hit the back end of a camper truck when I was young while riding my bike and ended up with a broken nose - blood everywhere and a huge goose egg on my forhead - that was immediate, but two days later, I had two black swollen eyes as a result. So it takes a while to show up. And yeah, I got the license plate. LOL I believe Trayvon did punch him in the face - he deserved it...especially if he had his gun drawn or tried to detain Trayvon by grabbing his arm or something like that. Trayvon didn't know who this whacko was.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 5:35 pm

One Wonders wrote:This will probably be my only post in this thread.
None of this would have happened if GZ did what he was told to do.
1. We don't need you to follow him. (Trayvon Martin)
2. We don't need you to get out of your vehicle. (Trayvon Martin)
Trayvon Martin's dead because GZ wouldn't do what he was told.
Period.
The rest is just noise.
Thank you.

One Wonders, you are absolutely correct, GZ should have done as he was told, stayed in the truck & nothing would have happened. But the problem is, it wasn't illegal for GZ to get out of his truck, he clearly should have done as told.. The evidence you are refering to as noise is going to determine GZ's fate, if he is convicted of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or if he walks. LE doesn't know who threw the first punch & we can't be sure what happened from the evidence we know about but we know there was an altercation & Trayvon is dead.

Could it have been possible that Trayvon was beating the snot out of GZ because he was mad as hell at being followed & didn't know who GZ was? Maybe. Did GZ shoot Trayvon to get him off of him? maybe, BUT no one knows this information.

Innocent victim's everyday are killed by drunk driver's, drunk's make bad decisions everyday to get in their cars & drive, sometime they kill the innocent, some times they make it home & sleep it off. Bad decisions often lead to the death of someone & that has happened in this case. The "noise" you referred to is going to hopefully explain the circumstances that lead to GZ using the gun & determing GZ's fate.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 5:47 pm

There's only three ways I see GZ walking away from this without some sort of conviction be it murder 2 or manslaughter:

1. If GZ was walking away towards his vehicle and Trayvon actually changed directions from his original destination and sought GZ out and assaulted him; or

2. The jury is comprised of all gun enthusiasts who simply refuse to see the evidence any way other than a SYG situation; or

3. The jury is comprised of 12 members from Pinellas county.

JMO JMO JMO
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 5:58 pm

Stolat wrote:
ellejay wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--a few videos included @ link.

--dan abrams, legal analyst: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

--reporter matt gutman confirms, george was on adderall for ADHD, and that donations are coming into the legal fund at the rate of about $1000/day. (a quick calculation tells me that would cover omara for about 2 and 1/2 hrs.)

--i wonder what evidence report/info omara will "leak" to his ABC pals today?


Mental Consequences
High doses of Aderall can also lead to some serious mental symptoms. Such symptoms as feeling hostile and paranoid are common. Patients also report that their personality has changed as a result of Adderal abuse and they can feel depressed and even suicidal. Some patients say that they suffer from auditory and visual hallucinations. Naturally, the patient also develops an addiction after a long term use, and he requires higher dosages of Adderall to get the same effect. Some people start using other drugs, as well.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/234805-what-does-adderall-do-for-people-that-do-not-have-adhd/#ixzz1v3BbCSDi

Stolat, I take Adderall as do millions of Americans, it is the newest, most effective drug available for the treatment of ADHD. If you are suggesting that perhps GZ was halcuinating or suffering from some type of effects from the medication, there are millions & millions of American's that do not suffer from anything & more importantly, NO EVIDENCE that GZ had any problems.. I take issue with your suggestion of Mental consequences, as EVERY drug has a consequence to a very small percentage of people that take it. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing to suggest that GZ had any problems w/his medication & if you are suggesting otherwise, you are wrong imo, to imply so.

The list is endless of warnings for ANY medication prescribed to anyone, just listen to any drug advertised on TV, for you to suggest if that is what you are doing, that GZ was suffering from any side effects, PROVE IT as Val used to say, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that exist that this was a problem for GZ.


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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed May 16, 2012 6:52 pm

art tart wrote:
One Wonders wrote:This will probably be my only post in this thread.
None of this would have happened if GZ did what he was told to do.
1. We don't need you to follow him. (Trayvon Martin)
2. We don't need you to get out of your vehicle. (Trayvon Martin)
Trayvon Martin's dead because GZ wouldn't do what he was told.
Period.
The rest is just noise.
Thank you.

One Wonders, you are absolutely correct, GZ should have done as he was told, stayed in the truck & nothing would have happened. But the problem is, it wasn't illegal for GZ to get out of his truck, he clearly should have done as told.. The evidence you are refering to as noise is going to determine GZ's fate, if he is convicted of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or if he walks. LE doesn't know who threw the first punch & we can't be sure what happened from the evidence we know about but we know there was an altercation & Trayvon is dead.

Could it have been possible that Trayvon was beating the snot out of GZ because he was mad as hell at being followed & didn't know who GZ was? Maybe. Did GZ shoot Trayvon to get him off of him? maybe, BUT no one knows this information.

Innocent victim's everyday are killed by drunk driver's, drunk's make bad decisions everyday to get in their cars & drive, sometime they kill the innocent, some times they make it home & sleep it off. Bad decisions often lead to the death of someone & that has happened in this case. The "noise" you referred to is going to hopefully explain the circumstances that lead to GZ using the gun & determing GZ's fate.

This is not a drunk driving vehicular homicide or manslaughter case. It has nothing to do with this case unless Zimmerman was under the influence of drugs or alcohol when he killed Trayvon Martin. We will never know because he was not tested for drugs or alcohol the night of the shooting.

Zimmerman's 911 call is a very powerful piece of evidence, that is the reason why the prosecution used it in the probable cause affidavit that was submitted for his arrest. Some people think that the affidavit was weak, I disagree. If he never takes the stand to testify on his own behalf, the jury will be able to hear what was in his mind the night that he crossed paths with Trayvon.

Obviously, Zimmerman's 911 call is not the only piece of evidence that the prosecution is planning to use against him during the trial. Ultimately, it will be up to the jurors to decide if Zimmerman killed Trayvon in self defense as he has claimed.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 7:11 pm

I agree that this is not a drug or alcohol case and there is entirely no indication that these will be an issue in this case - but Stolat has brought out something that could very well be utilized by the defense, should O'Mara believe that there is so much evidence against GZ that would make reasonable persons (the jury) be unable to even comprehend why GZ took the actions that he did that night. It would not be the first time that an attorney used the side effects of a prescription drugs as an excuse for what the defendant did. All it would take is an expert witness to attest to those side effects, paranoia and hostility to explain GZ's unreasonable conduct should the defense decide to go that route. Remember, we have seen the extreme of the type of theory an attorney will when backed into a corner in order to beat a charge on behalf of his client. And since we are all speculating on theories of how this crime was committed, or even if it is a crime, I do not believe it is too far out there to consider that GZ has the side effects of prescription drugs to fall back on. JMHO and I am in no way attempting to change yours, just showing a different perspective.


Last edited by CherokeeNative on Wed May 16, 2012 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typos ...)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 7:26 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:I agree that this is not a drug or alcohol case and there is entirely no indication that these will be an issue in this case - but Stolat has brought out something that could very well be utilized by the defense, should O'Mara believe that there is so much evidence against GZ that would make reasonable persons (the jury) be unable to even comprehend why GZ took the actions that he did that night. It would not be the first time that an attorney used the side effects of a prescription drugs as an excuse for what the defendant did. All it would take is an expert witness to attest to those side effects, paranoia and hostility to explain GZ's unreasonable conduct should the defense decide to go that route. Remember, we have seen the extreme of the type of theory an attorney will when backed into a corner in order to beat a charge on behalf of his client. And since we are all speculating on theories of how this crime was committed, or even if it is a crime, I do not believe it is too far out there to consider that GZ has the side effects of prescription drugs to fall back on. JMHO and I am in no way attempting to change yours, just showing a different perspective.

Cherokee Native, that type of defense fails everytime, it has been tried many times by murderer's on anti-depressant's which carry endless side effects, in this case, there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that GZ suffered from any side effects,I take this drug & suffer from being nauseated from time to time, it is the most effective drug I have taken for ADHD, so popular there is an estimated shortage this year to fulfill the prescriptions. There are millions of Americans on this drug, to suggest it imo, is ridiculous, not based on any known facts. The portion that might suffer reprucussions is miniscule in relation to the millions that take this medication.

Millions & millions of American children are immunized every year so they can enter preschool, there is a small portion of those children that have an adverse effect, some of the effects are severe & life altering for children, that doesn't stop ANY pre-school or public school from demanding your child be immunized OR they are going to be DENIED admittance, that is the law. Those that don't want to immunize their children HAVE to homeschool them.




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