George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Mon May 21, 2012 3:12 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.


And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Did he have to pull the slide? I thought with the Kel-tec he had, the slide was automatic with the pull of the trigger (?)...
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:16 pm

[quote="Twinkle"]
angela_nw wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
... And did he not actually call 911 much more than 4 times, reporting people of multiple races? Why just focus on the last four calls?

I don't have the pdf file in front of me but from what I recall: Zimmerman had called 911 many times over a number of years, reporting all sorts of things concerning various people and pets. In the past 1/2 year or so, there was a series of burglaries, several of which were attributed to black males. Zimmerman's calls during this later period had focussed primarily on "suspicious black males". I believe - although do not have the link - that one of Zimmerman's recent sightings of a "suspicious black male" brought the PD to the scene "too late" - in other words, that was one that "got away." ?
Yes, I remember reading about the one who got away in the Reuters article that fleshed out some of Zimmerman's background. That particular "suspicious black mail" was eventually apprehended committing another crime, though, so ultimately he did not get away.

[quote="angela_nw"]Another thing to keep in mind is Zimmerman's role as the "go-to" person in the Neighborhood Watch department of this housing complex - a role which he truly did not understand the parameters of. Note his harassing nosybody behavior towards guests of residents mentioned earlier today.
Yes, I get the idea that he was quite annoying, at the very least.

angela_nw wrote:And leaving the car with a weapon which goes against NW rules while acting in role of NWperson.
I don't know that we've established that he was acting in the role of a NW person that night. He says he was just headed to Target to buy groceries, and he did not identify himself as the NW when he called 911.

angela_nw wrote:His role should have been as an observer, collector of information, reporter of information to the dispatch #, or in the case of observing a crime, to 911. IMO I believe he had elevated his role in his own mind that he was going to catch a criminal, which again in his own mind was probably going to be one of the "suspicious black males" that had irked him by not being caught by PD earlier.
I agree that his determination not to let another one get away likely drove him to unwisely leave the car and pursue TM on foot, but I have seen no evidence that he planned to do anything other than track his movements so he could tell police where the "real suspicious guy" went. I think GZ's first big mistake was to make a snap judgment that TM was some kind of thug or criminal. It floors me that he failed to consider the possibility that TM might be an honest citizen, going about his business. Because GZ lived in a racially mixed neighborhood, and like any of us must have seen countless kids and young adults of all races walking around wearing hoodies, I am not convinced that this snap judgment was made solely on the basis of race or the wearing of the hoodie, though. He told the 911 operator that TM's behavior was suspicious to him, and I believe that was the primary basis of his suspicion.

That['s going to be hard to prove because Zimmerman took a fire arm with him when following Trayvon. And ended up using it.. That is not the way one keeps an eye on someone, that's a tragedy on the way to happen.

There was absolutely no provacation on Trayvons part, so if he had to defend himels against this man who was chasing him and following him, he had every right to do so.. Infact he had more right than Zimmerman had to leave his car goign after an innocent teenager. For which he knew was a teenager because he said it to the 911 operator.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:16 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.


And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Gizzmo - I think you are mistaken about the gun. I sent a link yesterday to HausofGuns provided by DebfrmHell - When you first load the clip into the gun, you have to slide the top back, but once that is done, it is locked and loaded as I understand. One bullet is already in the chamber and all you have to do is pull the trigger to knock of successive shots without any further loading. As I pointed out many moons ago, the clicking noises on the 911 tape made me wonder if he had not loaded the clip in the gun while he was speaking with the 911 dispatch. No matter where he loaded it, once it was loaded, there was nothing else to do but pulled the trigger. If I am wrong about that, someone will correct me. :-)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:17 pm

Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.


And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Did he have to pull the slide? I thought with the Kel-tec he had, the slide was automatic with the pull of the trigger (?)...

From the picture that I seen of the gun it appears that it has to be slid back, I may be wrong, but that's how it appears.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:21 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.


And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Gizzmo - I think you are mistaken about the gun. I sent a link yesterday to HausofGuns provided by DebfrmHell - When you first load the clip into the gun, you have to slide the top back, but once that is done, it is locked and loaded as I understand. One bullet is already in the chamber and all you have to do is pull the trigger to knock of successive shots without any further loading. As I pointed out many moons ago, the clicking noises on the 911 tape made me wonder if he had not loaded the clip in the gun while he was speaking with the 911 dispatch. No matter where he loaded it, once it was loaded, there was nothing else to do but pulled the trigger. If I am wrong about that, someone will correct me. :-)

OK, so that means that he did have a bullit in the chamber already and ready to be fired. I wonder if that's how he road around with his gun, that is dangerous. I do keep my gun loaded but it's a 32 and just has to be fired, I can cock it and it will fire with less pressure, but it can be fired either way. But if he initionaly slid it back than a bullit was already in the chamber ready to be fired.

So Zimmerman went prepared to fire that gun. The sad part is that all anyone has to do is show a gun and it's enough to make anyone back off.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:22 pm

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by serenaz1 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:24 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Tamta wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:I don't know how to upload, or I would upload the numerous maps we have of the complex.

On this thread, Is there an aerial photo with all important locations marked as well as the paths walked by both GZ and TM?

I don't know that I've seen one here yet - we had them at THM, and I copied them for my own personal use, but don't know how to bring them here.

I don't know how to post the maps here, but this link has some great aerials with some notations of residences, the mailboxes, etc..

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:24 pm

Gizzmo - you obviously have experience with guns. I have absolutely none - the video link is ALL I know. Because I watched this video to see if by chance the slide part of the gun could have hit GZ in the nose and that is how he got those injuries - but alas, it doesn't appear so.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by KZ on Mon May 21, 2012 3:28 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:KZ / Twinkle:

Snipped for length- KZ

KZ you know that I place your comments and opinions in high regard. They are always well thought out and well-reasoned. Twinkle, you too have made some very good points in your comments.

So, with all due respect, I want to question you on something just to satisfy my own curiosity. You acknowledge above that GZ should not have exited the vehicle and should have followed the dispatcher's instructions.

Cherokee-- just want you to know I saw this post-- and thank you! I'd be happy to share what I'm thinking-- even if we don't agree. I'm composing my reply off line, and will get back to you later-- hopefully this eve.

I kinda have a lot to say, sometimes! Embarassed
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by serenaz1 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:29 pm

jacct wrote:
angela_nw wrote:

I don't have the pdf file in front of me but from what I recall: Zimmerman had called 911 many times over a number of years, reporting all sorts of things concerning various people and pets. In the past 1/2 year or so, there was a series of burglaries, several of which were attributed to black males. Zimmerman's calls during this later period had focussed primarily on "suspicious black males". I believe - although do not have the link - that one of Zimmerman's recent sightings of a "suspicious black male" brought the PD to the scene "too late" - in other words, that was one that "got away."


Here's a link to the pdf of all GZ police calls from 2004 to 2012. http://www.scribd.com/doc/94330507/George-Zimmerrman-911-Call-History-2004-2012

The last call was on 2-26 to the non-emergency number about Trayvon and shows the name as George Zimmerman. The 2nd to last call was on 2-2 about a suspicious black male, it doesn't show if this was a 911 call or non-emergency line. Interestingly it shows the name as George-Neighborhood Watch. The 3rd to last call was on 1-29 about kids playing in the street (no race specified) and running in front of cars. The name on this call is George Zimmerman. The 4th to last call was on 12-10 about the guy he maybe hired to cater an event that wanted to get paid, the name is George Simmerman. The 5th to last call was on 10-1 about 2 suspicious black males loitering in a car. The name on this call is George Zimmerman-Neigh Watch.

I'm interested in why on some calls the name has Neighborhood Watch. Were these calls that GZ specified he was on watch? Does that mean other calls without this designation were calls when he wasn't on watch?

Thanks for the link! I'd forgotten how he FOLLOWED someone on the road for no carseats, while giving locations like he's a cop on TV.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Mon May 21, 2012 3:30 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.


And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Did he have to pull the slide? I thought with the Kel-tec he had, the slide was automatic with the pull of the trigger (?)...

From the picture that I seen of the gun it appears that it has to be slid back, I may be wrong, but that's how it appears.

According to this, no slide required:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm

"Finally, the PF-9 is a relatively simple pistol. It features Double Action Only (DAO) operation and there are few controls to remember. If one carries it with a round in the chamber, all you have to do is draw, aim and pull the trigger. Reloading is as simple as pushing the magazine release button, slamming home a spare magazine (which Kel-Tec sells but does not furnish with the gun), pressing the slide release and pulling the trigger. One reason so many people like revolvers for CCW is their ease of use. The PF-9 is just as easy to use. Cleaning and maintenance is similarly simple."

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Does any one know - If, as O'Mara says, he has less than half, and we have less than that - has all of the discovery been released by the prosecutor that is going to be released? Meaning that everything that is left is the evidence containing the Defendant's confession? Or, is there more to be released? I see nothing in the current evidence that explains why the prosecutor seemed to believe GZ's injuries were not caused by Trayvon bashing his head on concrete. That wouldn't be in the confession, i.e. GZ's statements, so something is missing. Of course, the texts wouldn't be considered part of a confession either. I wish the media would get on the ball and start filing motions to get this stuff released.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:35 pm

KZ wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:KZ / Twinkle:

Snipped for length- KZ

KZ you know that I place your comments and opinions in high regard. They are always well thought out and well-reasoned. Twinkle, you too have made some very good points in your comments.

So, with all due respect, I want to question you on something just to satisfy my own curiosity. You acknowledge above that GZ should not have exited the vehicle and should have followed the dispatcher's instructions.

Cherokee-- just want you to know I saw this post-- and thank you! I'd be happy to share what I'm thinking-- even if we don't agree. I'm composing my reply off line, and will get back to you later-- hopefully this eve.

I kinda have a lot to say, sometimes! Embarassed

I soooo look forward to your view on this all. Thanks KZ for sharing...and I hope I didn't read anything into your position that wasn't there. If I did, I apologize in advance. Cool
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by serenaz1 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:44 pm

Here's a link to the site with the maps that have arrows & lots more information. The only thing is, we don't really know where either of them were until the end, even from the start of the 911 call. Well, except for when TM was at the clubhouse, that's about it.

http://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Hmmm - if this gun has any type of recoil, could not it have hit GZ in the nose causing the injuries he has? Apparently, there are those who complain about its recoil, while others don't - but in a close encounter situation such as had to be the case in the GZ vs. Trayvon altercation - there may have been only inches in between the two....just speculating (again). I guess I am going to have to go get a job in the prosecutor's office so I can satisfy all of my questions. LOL

"I was pleasantly surprised that the recoil was not nearly as bad as I had imagined. I was told by the dealer and in reading many blogs that, although this gun is good for what it was designed (i.e. deep concealment, personal protection), it was not a lot of fun to shoot because of the recoil. "

http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Mon May 21, 2012 4:01 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
DebFrmHell wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:I don't know how to upload, or I would upload the numerous maps we have of the complex.

I just put in Picasa from Google so I should be able to do photos soon. I still have to figure out how to use it! I have maps that I had saved and I will try to post one of them in about 30 min or so. (I am just taking a break to get my mind off things.)

THis is the link to the Orlando Sentinel and there are 60+ crime scene photos in there. Be warning that in a few of those TMs body is still there though it is covered with the yellow blanket.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-063

On photo 9 you can see the flashlight (Evidence Marker 1) by the Doggie Station and where the leaf is on the sidewalk...that is the approx location of the key ring (Evidence marker 5.) THat picture is in there too so when you get to it you will see the leaf and why I referenced it.

Thanks for the photos Deb - that's the first I've seen. I understand the plastic bag, but I don't understand the first aid kit...could it be that a neighbor brought that out?

I agree, I think one of the neighbors brought it out from their house. Probably because that officer was asking for the bag and vasaline to seal the wound, trying to make the chest compressions work.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Mon May 21, 2012 4:10 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Hmmm - if this gun has any type of recoil, could not it have hit GZ in the nose causing the injuries he has? Apparently, there are those who complain about its recoil, while others don't - but in a close encounter situation such as had to be the case in the GZ vs. Trayvon altercation - there may have been only inches in between the two....just speculating (again). I guess I am going to have to go get a job in the prosecutor's office so I can satisfy all of my questions. LOL

"I was pleasantly surprised that the recoil was not nearly as bad as I had imagined. I was told by the dealer and in reading many blogs that, although this gun is good for what it was designed (i.e. deep concealment, personal protection), it was not a lot of fun to shoot because of the recoil. "

http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm

With a close contact wound like this, the gun even with recoil dosen't have space to move. You can see the recoil with the arms of the shooter extended on the video. I don't think there was space for that kind of recoil.

Actually, I wondered with that wound on TMs hand might have come from the slide. I know that the gun was swapped at the butt, trigger and slide but I wonder if they field stripped it to check the interior of the chamber. Places that might have made contact with skin but are not readily available.

The slide action will take off a chunk of skin.

Note* With TM having the wound on the outside of his hand and using the same thoughts, I have to wonder how his exterior hand could get to that position to loose a peice of skin. I can see the interior of his hand better than the exterior but I wasn't in te fight...

There is another thing in the AR that I have to read up on before commenting. In regards to trajectory. I will do that later on.

KZ has handgun knowledge and I asked her via WS the same questions.


Last edited by DebFrmHell on Mon May 21, 2012 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling is atrocious right now. had to fix the garble)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 4:20 pm

DebFrmHell wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:Hmmm - if this gun has any type of recoil, could not it have hit GZ in the nose causing the injuries he has? Apparently, there are those who complain about its recoil, while others don't - but in a close encounter situation such as had to be the case in the GZ vs. Trayvon altercation - there may have been only inches in between the two....just speculating (again). I guess I am going to have to go get a job in the prosecutor's office so I can satisfy all of my questions. LOL

"I was pleasantly surprised that the recoil was not nearly as bad as I had imagined. I was told by the dealer and in reading many blogs that, although this gun is good for what it was designed (i.e. deep concealment, personal protection), it was not a lot of fun to shoot because of the recoil. "

http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm

With a close contact wound like this, the gun even with recoil dosen't have space to move. You can see the recoil with the arms of the shooter extended on the video. I don't think there was space for that kind of recoil.

Actually, I wondered with that wound on TMs hand might have come from the slide. I know that the gun was swapped at the butt, trigger and slide but I wonder if they field stripped it to check the interior of the chamber. Places that might have made contact with skin but are not readily available.

The slide action will take off a chunk of skin.

Note* With TM having the wound on the outside of his hand and using the same thoughts, I have to wonder how his exterior hand could get to that position to loose a peice of skin. I can see the interior of his hand better than the exterior but I wasn't in te fight...

There is another thing in the AR that I have to read up on before commenting. In regards to trajectory. I will do that later on.

KZ has handgun knowledge and I asked her via WS the same questions.

Okay, I am satisfied that this didn't cause GZ's injuries. Good thought about Trayvon's though. I also wonder if Trayvon was wearing a ring -- because of the small lacerations on GZ's nose. But it could have been a finger nail too. I look forward to the trajectory info from you. Thanks Deb !!!!!
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Mon May 21, 2012 4:30 pm

Gizmo, just to correct again - Trayvon was 5' 11".
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Mon May 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Rather than the lacerations to GZ' head starting from the lower left of picture and traveling to the upper right, could they not have gone the other way? Top to bottom?
IMO, these injuries to the face and the back of the head are minute and could have been caused by fingernails.
Nail scrapings have been collected and will await the results.

When I looked again at the pictures of GZ. He does appear to have small discoloration and swelling to the right side of his nose. You can see a maroon-ish color tone just on the side. (I would imagine GZ would have iced it from the incident.)

KZ- Thank you for your expertize. I really did not understand how a nose could be broken without tremendous bruising or bleeding. IMO, the pictures DO show some evidence and that is all it would take--- some pressure.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Freckles wrote:Rather than the lacerations to GZ' head starting from the lower left of picture and traveling to the upper right, could they not have gone the other way? Top to bottom?
IMO, these injuries to the face and the back of the head are minute and could have been caused by fingernails.
Nail scrapings have been collected and will await the results.

When I looked again at the pictures of GZ. He does appear to have small discoloration and swelling to the right side of his nose. You can see a maroon-ish color tone just on the side. (I would imagine GZ would have iced it from the incident.)

KZ- Thank you for your expertize. I really did not understand how a nose could be broken without tremendous bruising or bleeding. IMO, the pictures DO show some evidence and that is all it would take--- some pressure.

From the pics that DebfrmHell provided up thread, you can see lumps on the top of GZ's head and the lacerations are up higher than I would have thought if someone was having their head pounded on concrete while lying prone. The only way I can see them being that high up on his head is if he had his head cocked back...who knows.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Porky on Mon May 21, 2012 5:05 pm

[quote="Twinkle"]
angela_nw wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
... And did he not actually call 911 much more than 4 times, reporting people of multiple races? Why just focus on the last four calls?

I don't have the pdf file in front of me but from what I recall: Zimmerman had called 911 many times over a number of years, reporting all sorts of things concerning various people and pets. In the past 1/2 year or so, there was a series of burglaries, several of which were attributed to black males. Zimmerman's calls during this later period had focussed primarily on "suspicious black males". I believe - although do not have the link - that one of Zimmerman's recent sightings of a "suspicious black male" brought the PD to the scene "too late" - in other words, that was one that "got away." ?
Yes, I remember reading about the one who got away in the Reuters article that fleshed out some of Zimmerman's background. That particular "suspicious black mail" was eventually apprehended committing another crime, though, so ultimately he did not get away.

[quote="angela_nw"]Another thing to keep in mind is Zimmerman's role as the "go-to" person in the Neighborhood Watch department of this housing complex - a role which he truly did not understand the parameters of. Note his harassing nosybody behavior towards guests of residents mentioned earlier today.
Yes, I get the idea that he was quite annoying, at the very least.

angela_nw wrote:And leaving the car with a weapon which goes against NW rules while acting in role of NWperson.
I don't know that we've established that he was acting in the role of a NW person that night. He says he was just headed to Target to buy groceries, and he did not identify himself as the NW when he called 911.

angela_nw wrote:His role should have been as an observer, collector of information, reporter of information to the dispatch #, or in the case of observing a crime, to 911. IMO I believe he had elevated his role in his own mind that he was going to catch a criminal, which again in his own mind was probably going to be one of the "suspicious black males" that had irked him by not being caught by PD earlier.
I agree that his determination not to let another one get away likely drove him to unwisely leave the car and pursue TM on foot, but I have seen no evidence that he planned to do anything other than track his movements so he could tell police where the "real suspicious guy" went. I think GZ's first big mistake was to make a snap judgment that TM was some kind of thug or criminal. It floors me that he failed to consider the possibility that TM might be an honest citizen, going about his business. Because GZ lived in a racially mixed neighborhood, and like any of us must have seen countless kids and young adults of all races walking around wearing hoodies, I am not convinced that this snap judgment was made solely on the basis of race or the wearing of the hoodie, though. He told the 911 operator that TM's behavior was suspicious to him, and I believe that was the primary basis of his suspicion.

Do you know find it telling that he was unable to articulate *what* he suspected Travon of on that night and to this day we still do not know? Was it suspicion of breaking and entering? Was it fear that he would cause physical harm to someone? Stealing a bike? Peeping tom?

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Puzzler on Mon May 21, 2012 5:06 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.

IDK...I'm not sure that I would be making rationalizations at that point...just afraid.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Mon May 21, 2012 5:08 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
clipped-

From the pics that DebfrmHell provided up thread, you can see lumps on the top of GZ's head and the lacerations are up higher than I would have thought if someone was having their head pounded on concrete while lying prone. The only way I can see them being that high up on his head is if he had his head cocked back...who knows.
Okay.Any possibility he had been grabbed from behind with maybe an attempted choke hold position?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Mon May 21, 2012 5:15 pm

CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 5:22 pm

Freckles wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
clipped-

From the pics that DebfrmHell provided up thread, you can see lumps on the top of GZ's head and the lacerations are up higher than I would have thought if someone was having their head pounded on concrete while lying prone. The only way I can see them being that high up on his head is if he had his head cocked back...who knows.
Okay.Any possibility he had been grabbed from behind with maybe an attempted choke hold position?

GZ grabbed in a choke hold or Trayvon? I had not even thought about that - how they came about to be on the ground. This is the part that is fuzzy with what we know. We know at some point, GZ appears in front of Trayvon according to the GF (this is in direct contradiction to GZ, who states that he was walking back to his vehicle and Trayvon came up to him from behind and cold cocked him). We know a witness saw a chase at the closer end near where Brandy's townhouse is and that this chase has the two running away from Brandy's back towards where the shooting occurs. So how did they end up on the ground? If it was the blow that Trayvon supposedly landed, then Trayvon had to have done that AFTER the chase. I was thinking that the blow by Trayvon was before the chase - but it could have been after the chase - and the "get off get off" is GZ attempting to detain Trayvon so Trayvon takes off running with GZ giving chase. Then, when they are at the spot that Trayvon is shot, Trayvon stops running, throws a punch, GZ falls and Trayvon pounces on top. Hope you can follow this LOL
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 5:28 pm

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Mon May 21, 2012 5:42 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:

Okay, I am satisfied that this didn't cause GZ's injuries. Good thought about Trayvon's though. I also wonder if Trayvon was wearing a ring -- because of the small lacerations on GZ's nose. But it could have been a finger nail too. I look forward to the trajectory info from you. Thanks Deb !!!!!

--a ring wasn't noted in the AR, although he had been wearing a watch.

--there was none of george's DNA found under trayon's fingernails, i wonder also about the tiny laceration on the nose.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 5:42 pm

Sheesh - I give up talking - I can't form a sentence all of a sudden.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Mon May 21, 2012 5:53 pm

--i know that W6, john, originally told SPD that it was george who was screaming for help, but then in hindsight, told the SA a month later that he actually had only assumed it must have the "guy on the bottom", but he really didn't know.

--i didn't know that he also took back his original stmt to SPD "the guy on top in the black hoodie was throwing down blows MMA style", changing that when he was later interviewed by the SA , to not even knowing if trayvon was hitting george at all.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Witnesses-shed-light-into-Trayvon-Martin-death/-/1637132/13475090/-/15bcvf6/-/index.html

In a statement to police the night of the shooting, witness 6 said he saw two men wrestling on the ground. He said he saw a man matching Martin's description on top, punching Zimmerman on the ground.

"The one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style," witness 6 told Sanford police within hours of the shooting.

But in follow-up interviews with the state attorney's office and Florida Department of Law Enforcement, his statement changed. In re-telling his story, he remained consistent by saying Martin was on top, in control, and had the advantage, but now, he wasn't sure if Martin was the aggressor.

W6: Did not hear a punch sound.
SAO: Did [you]ever hear a sound like a head or another part of a body hitting concrete hard where it made a noise?
W6: No, I did not.
SAO: Did you hear it at all, like any...?
W6: Just the struggle sound.

Witness 6 went on to say, "I can't truly see how close they were to each other; if he was hitting him, or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until cops got there."
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 5:57 pm

ellejay wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:

Okay, I am satisfied that this didn't cause GZ's injuries. Good thought about Trayvon's though. I also wonder if Trayvon was wearing a ring -- because of the small lacerations on GZ's nose. But it could have been a finger nail too. I look forward to the trajectory info from you. Thanks Deb !!!!!

--a ring wasn't noted in the AR, although he had been wearing a watch.

--there was none of george's DNA found under trayon's fingernails, i wonder also about the tiny laceration on the nose.

If there was no DNA under Trayvon's nails, then how did those scratches get there? He has one on the side of his head/face too (pix by Deb). Makes me wonder if he crashed and fell into an A/C unit and bushes and got all of those nicks and cuts. Broken nose from Trayvon punching him, okay - but that wouldn't make the scratches - right?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Twinkle on Mon May 21, 2012 6:00 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Twinkle, you too have made some very good points in your comments.
Thanks, and right back at you!

CherokeeNative wrote:Even though it was not "illegal" per se to follow Trayvon, can you admit that by doing so, he was menancing Trayvon to the point that Trayvon was in fear for his life? Is this not a form of harassment?

Right now I do not have sufficient evidence that GZ did anything more than he said he did, which is follow the path taken by TM to see where he went, lose sight of him, walk over to the next street to get an address, then attempt to return to his car. I also have no concrete evidence that Trayvon was in fear of his life. He did run away from GZ, but there may be other explanations for that. (For instance, I read some thoughts about the case written by a police officer who has worked in Miami Gardens; he theorizes that Trayvon initially assumed GZ was a police officer and ran away for that reason. He said this would be a typical response for a teen from that area.)

CherokeeNative wrote:And what if Trayvon's worst fears that this person that was following him was another Ted Bundy were true? Would Trayvon have been justified in making the first punch? I guess what I am failing to understand, and believe me, I am trying - is what do you believe Trayvon should have done any differently?

This question is based on the premise that Trayvon was forced to confront GZ and was unable to avoid that confrontation. I am not convinced of that. I still don't see why he couldn't outrun the older, heavier GZ and make it back to Brandy Green's if he really wanted to.

CherokeeNative wrote:And why is it that it was up to Trayvon to have remained calm and handled a situation that he did not cause?

I would not expect Trayvon to remain calm and collect if he had been chased down and detained by GZ; I believe that is the perspective you are speaking from. However, I am not convinced that is what happened.

CherokeeNative wrote:He was a teen without the years of experience that GZ had. He was absolutely in a place where he belonged and doing nothing that a reasonable person would believe was illegal or suspicious. GZ on the other hand had nothing to fear - he was the one who chose to follow Trayvon and he was armed should things get out of control. This isn't a situation where the two just happened upon each other.

We don't know exactly how they ended up face to face. That is the problem.

CherokeeNative wrote:It seems that because you do not believe the defendant set out to cause Trayvon's death that night, or because Trayvon took the first swing, GZ should not be held fully accountable for his conduct.

No, that is not the way I see it. If GZ committed manslaughter or 2nd degree murder, he should be held accountable for his actions. I have not seen sufficient evidence for either. GZ is claiming self defense, which is bolstered by the fact that he sustained injuries, and also there is a witness who saw TM sitting on top of GZ, beating him MMA style. The question is, was GZ in a dire enough situation to justify the use of deadly force? I don't know yet. I need more information. If the situation did not justify deadly force, then we are talking manslaughter. I don't see how the prosecution is anywhere close to being able to prove the malice or ill will needed for a 2nd degree murder conviction, but also realize that I have not seen all of their evidence.

CherokeeNative wrote:Let's say that Trayvon became the aggressor when he took the first swing at GZ. Did GZ not become the aggressor when he chose to draw his gun on Trayvon?

That depends on when he drew the gun, and whether he had sufficient reason to fear death or injury. I know many here believe he had his gun drawn before the physical altercation began. I am not convinced of that. So to me it boils down to whether or not GZ was really being beaten badly enough that he needed to apply deadly force to prevent his own death, or substantial injury to himself.

CherokeeNative wrote:Manslaughter cases are where a death occurs as a result of accident due to the negligence of another. I see no negligence on GZ's part. He purposely ignored the dispatcher's instructions.
That is not an established fact. After the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that", he said "okay", and then the sounds indicating he was running stopped. GZ says he went to look for an address, then headed back to his car, and TM confronted/attacked him. How do we know that is not true?

CherokeeNative wrote:He purposely brought the gun with him.
Again, not necessarily so. He says he left his home to go shopping. He opted to wear a concealed weapon, which is his right. We don't know that he deliberated on whether or not to take the gun when he left the car to see where TM went. He was already wearing it, so he may not have given the gun a second thought.

CherokeeNative wrote:He did not raise the gun and it accidentally went off. He raised the gun and purposely pulled the trigger without any warning to Trayvon.

If he perceived himself to be in a life and death situation, with his assailant attempting to grab the gun, why would he stop to deliver a warning? This is what GZ claims was happening when he fired the gun, and we have nothing to indicate otherwise.

CherokeeNative wrote:To me that is the depraved mind that the prosecutor is claiming - among other instances that would lead to that conclusion.
The depraved mind comes from not warning someone who is on top of you delivering a beating and then trying to grab your gun that you are going to shoot him? I don't think that's going to fly with a jury.

CherokeeNative wrote:Maybe if you explain to me what your theory of what this case is given what we know, maybe I can better understand your position. It is important to me because I believe we here at RC are just as good an example of a mock jury as one can get, and all of our opinions are important towards getting an idea of how the real jury will decide.
I don't really have a theory of this case; I just refuse to get caught up in the emotionally driven backlash against GZ, much of which has been pushed by lawyers, activists, and media consultants, who have been distributing misinformation, aided and abetted by the media. At the very least I feel that GZ is morally culpable for failing to consider that the "real suspicious guy" he reported might be an innocent kid, and for being foolish enough to get out of his car while armed to see where the "real suspicious guy" went, setting into motion a conflict between the two that ended in a tragic death. Whether he is guilty of more than that, I do not yet know. I need more information, and better evidence than what I've seen up to this point.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by old chemistry major on Mon May 21, 2012 6:15 pm

Standing ovation for Twinkle...the leap to judgement is why I stopped reading at the Hinky right before it closed. So much mis information and posion was immediatately reported that it convinced many of false "facts."
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Mon May 21, 2012 6:20 pm

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

GZ didn't report that. DD did.. It is in her transcript to SAO. What are you following me for? What are you doing here?"


Also, Freckles, there was no DNA under TM’s fingernails that were associated with George Zimmerman although there was a positive test for presence of blood. See page 106.

References are ME-2A and ME-2B for the nail references.

The small wound on TM’s hand just reminds me of a pinching wound.

For some reason I thought that bullet might have been traveling slightly left to right. I must have been reading it wrong or got confused from the picture that KZ had posted earlier of a GSW on someone who was NOT TRAYVON M.

Sorry for confusion.

Entrance: Left chest, intermediate range.
Path of projectile: Skin, left anterior 5th intercostal apace, pericardial sac, right ventricle of heart, and right lower lobe of lung
Direction of projectile: Directly, front to back
Exit: none; fragments of prjectile recovered in pericardial sac and right pleural cavity
Associated injuries: Entrance wound; perforations of the pericardial sac, right ventricle of heart, tight lower lobe of lung with bilateral pleural himmhage
Postmertem radiograph: Metallic fragments of projectile identified

In lieu of KZ being here, I have to resort to Google images to find the exact placement of the left anterior 5th intercostal apace

As for the direct path of the bullet, I think that refers to the fact that the bullet didn't hit a bone of any kind to deflect it in another direction. Again...

KZ! Where are you???? LOL.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 6:24 pm

Thanks Twinkle. I truly appreciate you being candid with me and sharing your thoughts on this, although you didn't have to. You make some good points and I completely understand you and others wanting more information before settling in on what your verdict would be. praise As you can probably tell, I am the type of person that forms an early opinion and takes a stance on that opinion. If information comes forward down the line that changes that opinion, I am movable, down to the point of making a full turn about. It's one of those hot or cold things - I don't know why, but that is my nature. Fortunately, I have found that I usually don't change my mind. At this point, I would have absolutely no problem convicting GZ of Murder2. So if it were just you and I, we would hang the jury. roflao Again, thanks for going along with my questions and satisfying my curiosity. Very Happy
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Guest on Mon May 21, 2012 6:29 pm

old chemistry major wrote:Standing ovation for Twinkle...the leap to judgement is why I stopped reading at the Hinky right before it closed. So much mis information and posion was immediatately reported that it convinced many of false "facts."

old chemistry major & Twinkle, I agree, many opinions are based on emotions instead of facts, I am forever amazed to read about percieved conversations that Trayvon & GZ had, theories of what could have possibly happened, NO ONE knows this information, it has not been released in evidence to us, no one knows who threw the first punch, imo, there are too many unknowns in the case yet many are steadfast in their opinion to convict GZ of 2nd degree murder. The depositions to be taken in this case are going to shed more light on the altercation.

There's plenty of time for all the evidence to come out, plenty of time to form opinions on more known facts, but I need more evidence & information, I refuse to get sucked into another case like Caylee's, a lot of what got debated to death didn't make it into court & didn't matter, the jury made a decision ONLY on the evidence presented. Even depostions of a lot of player's that we discussed endlessly at the HM never even testified. all, jmo.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Porky on Mon May 21, 2012 6:37 pm

old chemistry major wrote:Standing ovation for Twinkle...the leap to judgement is why I stopped reading at the Hinky right before it closed. So much mis information and posion was immediatately reported that it convinced many of false "facts."

Huh? I thought that we were hashing out the rationale for the various scenarios and what makes the most sense.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Mon May 21, 2012 6:40 pm

Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by old chemistry major on Mon May 21, 2012 6:44 pm

Thanks Art..I want the facts to come out and I want the veridct to reflect the facts presented. Before then, I hope we can continue to decipher the evidence as it comes down. Blessing to all for their passion and concern.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 6:51 pm

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

I don't know about "chambered" but the clip was full except for the one bullet that was shot.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by old chemistry major on Mon May 21, 2012 6:56 pm

Deb fm Hell...well I'm not KZ but I think what they are saying is the the bullet entered in a path between the 5th and 6th left front rib, through the lining of the heart, through the right lower chamber of the heart, and through the lower lobe of the right lung. Apparently no angle as to the direction of head to foot, but straight from top to bottom. But apparently some left to right. Hope that makes sense.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 6:57 pm

Porky wrote:
old chemistry major wrote:Standing ovation for Twinkle...the leap to judgement is why I stopped reading at the Hinky right before it closed. So much mis information and posion was immediatately reported that it convinced many of false "facts."

Huh? I thought that we were hashing out the rationale for the various scenarios and what makes the most sense.

No problem - you just won't be able to be on the jury Porky. roflao


Last edited by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Tamta on Mon May 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine



Last edited by Tamta on Mon May 21, 2012 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Porky on Mon May 21, 2012 7:04 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Porky wrote:
old chemistry major wrote:Standing ovation for Twinkle...the leap to judgement is why I stopped reading at the Hinky right before it closed. So much mis information and posion was immediatately reported that it convinced many of false "facts."

Huh? I thought that we were hashing out the rationale for the various scenarios and what makes the most sense.

No problem - you just won't be able to be on the jury Porky. roflao

I was going to say something like why don't we just save our comments for when the verdict comes out but I wont :DD

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Tamta on Mon May 21, 2012 7:09 pm

I know this is snipped from a blog, but I am posting this because of the detail regarding the weapon. It is not a rumor nor what it seems a rumor based observation but an observation of an 'expert':

BBM

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.


Massad's So What:
This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.



http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 7:20 pm

Tamta wrote:I know this is snipped from a blog, but I am posting this because of the detail regarding the weapon. It is not a rumor nor what it seems a rumor based observation but an observation of an 'expert':

BBM

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.


Massad's So What:
This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.



http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

I don't know enough about guns, so I will just ask the question and hope that those who are familiar with guns and in particular this gun will know the answer. In the HausofGuns video, the subject discusses misfires by the KelTec PF9, so I don't know if this is the same thing as being discussed above -- but it is where he is shooting the gun and the next round fails to load and does not fire - if so, it appears that this gun does that often. I have published the link up thread. Also, IIRC, didn't the discovery show that Trayvon's DNA was not on the gun?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Tamta on Mon May 21, 2012 7:27 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Tamta wrote:I know this is snipped from a blog, but I am posting this because of the detail regarding the weapon. It is not a rumor nor what it seems a rumor based observation but an observation of an 'expert':

BBM

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.


Massad's So What:
This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.



http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

I don't know enough about guns, so I will just ask the question and hope that those who are familiar with guns and in particular this gun will know the answer. In the HausofGuns video, the subject discusses misfires by the KelTec PF9, so I don't know if this is the same thing as being discussed above -- but it is where he is shooting the gun and the next round fails to load and does not fire - if so, it appears that this gun does that often. I have published the link up thread. Also, IIRC, didn't the discovery show that Trayvon's DNA was not on the gun?

Yes to the DNA on the gun.
Masaad asked this question pre-discovery obviously.
(By the way this guy runs a very sensible blog! I just discovered it.)j

However I have not had the time to watch that video but hope to later.
A quick scan of other gun blogs regarding this weapon (lol that i ever read any)
report some dissatisfaction with this gun's performance, but I am not sure if IIRC as to any comments that you made about it.)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by CherokeeNative on Mon May 21, 2012 7:31 pm

Tamta wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Tamta wrote:I know this is snipped from a blog, but I am posting this because of the detail regarding the weapon. It is not a rumor nor what it seems a rumor based observation but an observation of an 'expert':

BBM

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.


Massad's So What:
This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.



http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

I don't know enough about guns, so I will just ask the question and hope that those who are familiar with guns and in particular this gun will know the answer. In the HausofGuns video, the subject discusses misfires by the KelTec PF9, so I don't know if this is the same thing as being discussed above -- but it is where he is shooting the gun and the next round fails to load and does not fire - if so, it appears that this gun does that often. I have published the link up thread. Also, IIRC, didn't the discovery show that Trayvon's DNA was not on the gun?

Yes to the DNA on the gun.
Masaad asked this question pre-discovery obviously.
(By the way this guy runs a very sensible blog! I just discovered it.)j

However I have not had the time to watch that video but hope to later.
A quick scan of other gun blogs regarding this weapon (lol that i ever read any)
report some dissatisfaction with this gun's performance, but I am not sure if IIRC as to any comments that you made about it.)

In the video, the guy says that people have reported that it misfires (or whatever he calls it) and that he hasn't had that problem, and the next thing, when he goes to shoot, he pops off a couple rounds and it misfires... LOL Whether this is the same as failing to "cycle a fresh round" or not, I don't know but sounds like it. I believe Deb and KZ have experience with guns so hopefully they will weigh in and clear that up for us.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Mon May 21, 2012 7:37 pm

Tamta - That is where I was going. Why the gun did not chamber the next round. Was there an obstruction?

Then to follows Deb's suggestion...could the gun have caused the wound on TM's finger. I would HOPE that the gun was fully stripped and swapped.

Safely, my husband and I did a role play. TM could have had one hand or both hands wrapped around the wrist of the hand in which GZ was holding the gun. The slide action could have reached TM's fingers if he was holding onto GZ's wrist(s).

If TM got nicked from the gun shouldn't there be DNA? If no, then was it from a fist fight?


Last edited by Lash on Tue May 22, 2012 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Mon May 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

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