George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:22 am

[quote="Porky"]
Gizmo711 wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....[/quote]

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO


Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.


I don't for a second believe that Trayvon said such a thing. No one and especially a teenager would come out with such a remark. The screaming stop the second the shot was fired and Trayvon died instantly. he had no time to utter a sound moreless a sentence. And had he had enough time, I doubt very much it would have been "you got me". If anything at all, he may have said in a surprise tone "you shot me", but I even doubt that. That bullit killed Trayvon the instant it hit him.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 11:29 am

DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.


The judge set a pretrial hearing for August 8, 2012.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:30 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:From Reality Chatter Latest News:

Trayvon Martin case: Has the media prematurely declared George Zimmerman's innocence?

By Joy-Ann Reid

8:02 AM on 05/22/2012


George Zimmerman in court (Getty Images)

Much of the media is now fixated on the pictures of injuries George Zimmerman sustained on the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

A consensus appears to be building that those photos -- of scratches, abrasions and wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head -- bolster, Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. Some news outlets have gone so far as to ask whether second degree murder charges against Zimmerman should be dropped altogether, on the premise that. if the Miami teen struck the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman was justified in shooting to kill, under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

But is that what the law says?

Legal experts say no.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/media-jprematurely-declares-george-zimmerman-innocence.php


No, that is not what the law say's. One cannot initiate a fight and just because he may be losing the battle he shoots the other guy. There is no such law in any state of the US. SYG law means just that, you no longer have to flee, you can stand your ground. If this law comes in on any part of this case it will be that Trayvon was SHG, he did not have to retreat, he had every right to fight off his attacker (Zimmerman). But with those 911 calls, I doubt very strongly that Zimmerman will be able to use that law at all. JMO

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:33 am

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo


All Zimmerman would have had to do was show Trayvon the gun and the fight would have ended without firing the gun. I believe it was when Trayvon saw that Zimmerman was going to shoot him is when Trayvon started to scream for someone to help him. Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman, he didn't know what this man was capable of and when he saw the gun in Zimmermans hand, I believe that Trayvon saw his death coming.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 11:35 am

DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

--the evidenciary hearing IS the SYG hearing.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

--April 11/2012
George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming "stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence.

The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show.

In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves.

--back when george was 1st arrested legal experts were assuming that o'mara would opt for the evidenciary/SYG hearing(which would happen months down the road)----o'mara then said he would have to see all of the evidence that the state had before making that decision.

--i doubt he'll take that chance, george would obviously have to testify (and we've seen that action when george briefly took the stand at the bond hearing) the burden would be ON the defense, and, if the judge didn't grant their dismissal they would pretty much have given up all of their defense tactics since they would go all out at "their" hearing to have the charges dropped.......however, we'll see.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 11:46 am

ellejay wrote:
DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

--the evidenciary hearing IS the SYG hearing.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

--April 11/2012
George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming "stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence.

The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show.

Thanks! I knew you would have the link answers!
In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves.

--back when george was 1st arrested legal experts were assuming that o'mara would opt for the evidenciary/SYG hearing(which would happen months down the road)----o'mara then said he would have to see all of the evidence that the state had before making that decision.

--i doubt he'll take that chance, george would obviously have to testify (and we've seen that action when george briefly took the stand at the bond hearing) the burden would be ON the defense, and, if the judge didn't grant their dismissal they would pretty much have given up all of their defense tactics since they would go all out at "their" hearing to have the charges dropped.......however, we'll see.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 11:49 am

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Tue May 22, 2012 12:06 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
Tamta wrote:
Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine


It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Hi Gizmo! The bullet was indeed a hollow point. There are still some laws prohibiting the use of hollow points. They're banned for military use.

I disagree that "instantaneous death" comes to those who are shot by a hollow point. That is a big leap. The bullet alone does not determine the outcome. Where the bullet enters the body...what organs or arteries are affected...all these factors and more determine the outcome. It is true that hollow points are made to expand upon entering the body. They decrease penetration and the mushrooming can cause more damage. They rarely cause a through and through shot. The control of the penetration is also considered a safety measure. It lessens the chance of the bullet passing through an aggressor and causing harm to an innocent.

I also disagree based merely on the type of bullet GZ carried makes him an "intentional killer". Are you aware the majority of LE carry using hollow points? Would this make LE and our local, state governments "intentional killers"? In my opinion, absolutely not. These bullets are favored because of their accuracy, the added safety of over penetrating, ricocheting and the greater potential of stopping the threat.

Also, as you can see in the link provided below, jacketed hollow points (JHP) provide a greater "one shot stop" percentage than full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Porky on Tue May 22, 2012 12:09 pm

Lash

Let's say we buy what you are saying. Do you agree that the intent is to kill if one shoots another at point blank in the heart area?

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 12:21 pm

Lash wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
Tamta wrote:
Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine


It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Hi Gizmo! The bullet was indeed a hollow point. There are still some laws prohibiting the use of hollow points. They're banned for military use.

I disagree that "instantaneous death" comes to those who are shot by a hollow point. That is a big leap. The bullet alone does not determine the outcome. Where the bullet enters the body...what organs or arteries are affected...all these factors and more determine the outcome. It is true that hollow points are made to expand upon entering the body. They decrease penetration and the mushrooming can cause more damage. They rarely cause a through and through shot. The control of the penetration is also considered a safety measure. It lessens the chance of the bullet passing through an aggressor and causing harm to an innocent.

I also disagree based merely on the type of bullet GZ carried makes him an "intentional killer". Are you aware the majority of LE carry using hollow points? Would this make LE and our local, state governments "intentional killers"? In my opinion, absolutely not. These bullets are favored because of their accuracy, the added safety of over penetrating, ricocheting and the greater potential of stopping the threat.

Also, as you can see in the link provided below, jacketed hollow points (JHP) provide a greater "one shot stop" percentage than full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115

Yes, hollow point bullits are used so that the bullit wont travel thru any hard surface. But, any bullit hit in the chest cavity would do major harm, but a hollow point is very likely to be instant death. Most civilians use them for home intruders, so that the bullit wont go thru a wall and hit someone in the next room etc. But a person can survive if hit in the leg, arm etc also. But to be hit in the chest or back or stomach will most likely cause instant death. It was stated that Trayvon died instantly, I wouldn't doubt it when he has been hit with a hollow point bullit. There wouldn't be time for him to catch a breath to say "you got me". that's for sure. It would have knocked every bit of wind he had in him out.

For those who believe that it was Trayvon screaming, notice how the screaming stopped instantly when the gun was fired.

As for what LE uses, the hollow point would be best for them to use in order not to hit any innocent people. LE also are trained on how to fire a gun as to not kill (when they want or don't want to). When LE is shotting to kill, they kill. When they are shooting to harm, they harm. Zimmerman shot for the chest and at close range, Trayvon didn't stand a chance to survive that kind of shot.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 12:25 pm

As I said earlier, all Zimmerman would have had to do was show his gun and Trayvon would have immediately backed away. I believe that when Trayvon saw the gun he realized that Zimmerman was going to shoot him and he started to scream. Zimmerman shot Trayvon point blank in the chest killing him instantly. If Zimmerman wanted to, he could have shot Trayvon in the leg or arm but he shot him in the chest. This tells me that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing Trayvon.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by snowbird on Tue May 22, 2012 12:27 pm

ellejay wrote:
angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.
I am glad you shared that picture. It would seem like he would have his hands protecting him and there would be defensive wound. If he was getting hit head smashed on the pavement, you would think his hands would go to his head to protect his head. If he was being beaten in the face you would think he would be holding his hands to his face. It would be natural to protect the body part that is getting injured. I know other people have brought this up about his hands, but it really brought it home to me when I saw the picture.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 12:38 pm

Florida Stand Your Groun Law - Information:

Controvertial Florida Stand Your Ground Law and H0249 and Subsequent Amendment HB0249C2 839703 848887

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86244147/Controversial-Florida-Stand-Your-Ground-Law-H-0249-and-Subsequent-Amendment-HB0249C2-839703-848887
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 12:41 pm

Porky wrote:Lash

Let's say we buy what you are saying. Do you agree that the intent is to kill if one shoots another at point blank in the heart area?

My opinion is yes, Zimmerman could have shot Trayvon in an arm or a leg to stop the alleged attack.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 12:51 pm

Given the proximity of these guys and where the weapon was at the time, in its holster, a blind person could hit the chest area. I still question that small wound on TMs hand as it could be related to that slide. It was a fresh wound. We know he didn't hit a tooth with it or GZ would have had a mouth injury. What is left to leave that would cause that kind of a wound?

(The evidence photo of the KEL TEC shows it unloaded with the slide pulled back.)

I still want to know if they field stripped it for swabbing on the interior of the chamber. I couldn't find any reference to it in the reports other than generalized exterior swabbing. I would ask for further testing since it could be considered a defensive wound.

Also, we will never know that given the opportunity and distance that Zimmerman would have shot for an area that would disable TM or if he even would shot at all.

Just saying....

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 1:21 pm

ellejay wrote:
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
Where Is the Rest of the Discovery on the Zimmerman Case? on 21 May 2012.

We have fielded many inquiries regarding the additional information about this case. The State Attorney’s Office has made much of the evidence in the George Zimmerman case public record on Thursday, May 17, 2012. Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, has stressed that people should not make up their minds about this case based upon the partial evidence available. The O’Mara Law Group has estimated that only about half of the discovery has been made available by the state so far. The remainder of the discovery is currently being scrutinized, and certain information is being properly redacted -- especially information that puts witnesses in potential danger or risks unnecessarily inflaming the cultural tensions that surround this case. We agree with the State’s decision to attend to this discovery in a methodical, protected way.

It may be several weeks before all the evidence is delivered to the defense, and it is important to note that certain items in evidence may not be made public at all. Because of the interest in this case, it is understood that there will be wide public examination of the evidence. The O’Mara Law group stresses that while the George Zimmerman case will be explored deeply in the media and by the public, the only proper place to determine the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman is in court, and indeed only the jury will have all the evidence required to make such a determination.

--mentioning that "only a jury" will have all the evidence would 'suggest' that omara is planning on skipping the SYG immunity hearing (the mini-trial heard only by the judge) and taking this to trial.

I agree that by mentioning that only the jury will have all the evidence creates doubts as to whether or not he will file a Stand Your Ground Law Motion for Immunity.

"After the upcoming arraignment, the next step in the Zimmerman trial will be a special evidentiary hearing that a Florida defendant who claims self defense is entitled to. Zimmerman has the burden of proving, with a preponderance of the evidence, that he has a valid claim of self defense. If the judge agrees, then the trial is over and he has immunity, in the Florida courts, from prosecution for the shooting.

The evidentiary hearing will be like a mini-trial, but Zimmerman has the burden of proving his position, so O’Mara will have to present evidence first, unlike the normal criminal proceeding."


~~~~~~

"The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life."

If O'mara file a Motion for Immunity, Zimmerman will have to testify. In a normal Evidentially Hearing, which is synonymous of Preliminary Hearing and is also like a mini trial, the defendant doesn't have to testify, under the Stand Your Ground Law, the defendant has the burden of proof, his lawyer will have to present evidence and Zimmerman will have to take the stand to convince the judge that the shooting of Trayvon Martin was a justifiable homicide.



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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 1:27 pm

ellejay wrote:
angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Stolat on Tue May 22, 2012 1:42 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
ellejay wrote:
angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

BBM
@Ellejay - because he was possibly too busy getting his gun out to kill the guy
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Tue May 22, 2012 1:44 pm

Porky said:
"
You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why."

It sounds more like a game of tag, hide n seek, or maybe paint ball games. But games not something so deadly GZ was afraid for his life, so afraid GZ thought he would end up in a vegetative state. Rather staged comments. Further, as was pointed out earlier by K Z , TM had ONE FOURTH of his heart blown away! What opportunities did TM have to THINK and to ACKNOWLEDGE let alone SPEAK those words? He could not have uttered a bloodcurdling scream or even moan in pain. It was over. The door was slammed.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Tue May 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:
Lash wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:
It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Hi Gizmo! The bullet was indeed a hollow point. There are still some laws prohibiting the use of hollow points. They're banned for military use.

I disagree that "instantaneous death" comes to those who are shot by a hollow point. That is a big leap. The bullet alone does not determine the outcome. Where the bullet enters the body...what organs or arteries are affected...all these factors and more determine the outcome. It is true that hollow points are made to expand upon entering the body. They decrease penetration and the mushrooming can cause more damage. They rarely cause a through and through shot. The control of the penetration is also considered a safety measure. It lessens the chance of the bullet passing through an aggressor and causing harm to an innocent.

I also disagree based merely on the type of bullet GZ carried makes him an "intentional killer". Are you aware the majority of LE carry using hollow points? Would this make LE and our local, state governments "intentional killers"? In my opinion, absolutely not. These bullets are favored because of their accuracy, the added safety of over penetrating, ricocheting and the greater potential of stopping the threat.

Also, as you can see in the link provided below, jacketed hollow points (JHP) provide a greater "one shot stop" percentage than full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115

Yes, hollow point bullits are used so that the bullit wont travel thru any hard surface. But, any bullit hit in the chest cavity would do major harm, but a hollow point is very likely to be instant death. Most civilians use them for home intruders, so that the bullit wont go thru a wall and hit someone in the next room etc. But a person can survive if hit in the leg, arm etc also. But to be hit in the chest or back or stomach will most likely cause instant death. It was stated that Trayvon died instantly, I wouldn't doubt it when he has been hit with a hollow point bullit. There wouldn't be time for him to catch a breath to say "you got me". that's for sure. It would have knocked every bit of wind he had in him out.

For those who believe that it was Trayvon screaming, notice how the screaming stopped instantly when the gun was fired.

As for what LE uses, the hollow point would be best for them to use in order not to hit any innocent people. LE also are trained on how to fire a gun as to not kill (when they want or don't want to). When LE is shotting to kill, they kill. When they are shooting to harm, they harm. Zimmerman shot for the chest and at close range, Trayvon didn't stand a chance to survive that kind of shot.

Gizmo -

I specifically did not mention TM in my post, as you did not either. The discussion was about the use of hollow point bullets. I agree with you that a shot to the chest cavity with a hollow point would most likely be fatal. I disagreed with your blanketed statements that hollow points cause instant death and are "people killers". You did not specify a point of entry in your first post. Hollow point bullets serve many purposes and are not simply "people killers". I gave examples of those purposes above.

I addressed your statement that GZ had the "intention to kill someone" because of the ammuntion he chose to use. LE and most civilian training teaches to shoot COM "center of mass". LE is not trained to kill, they're trained to shoot until the threat stops. A shot to the COM with a hollow point does not mean instantaneous death. In my opinion based solely on what a person chooses to use as ammunition does not make them an intentional killer.

Additional information-

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/04/myth-of-handgun-stopping-power-part-3.html



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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

--quite.

--and the "brutal attacker" doesn't have any offensive wounds (cuts, scrapes, bruises, swelling..) on his.

--except for the AR noted "small 1/4" X 1/8" abrasion" on the 4th finger/left hand.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 2:01 pm

Freckles wrote:Porky said:
"
You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why."

It sounds more like a game of tag, hide n seek, or maybe paint ball games. But games not something so deadly GZ was afraid for his life, so afraid GZ thought he would end up in a vegetative state. Rather staged comments. Further, as was pointed out earlier by K Z , TM had ONE FOURTH of his heart blown away! What opportunities did TM have to THINK and to ACKNOWLEDGE let alone SPEAK those words? He could not have uttered a bloodcurdling scream or even moan in pain. It was over. The door was slammed.

--a post by "KZ" on this subject:

--KZ---:The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Tue May 22, 2012 2:04 pm

Excellent observations re the lack of injuries related to defensive or offensive moves.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 2:05 pm

Stolat wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:
ellejay wrote:
angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

BBM
@Ellejay - because he was possibly too busy getting his gun out to kill the guy

There are not signs on Trayvon's hands that he was punching him on the face while he was on the ground as Zimmerman has alleged. Also, they didn't find Zimmerman's DNA on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Tue May 22, 2012 2:10 pm

ellejay wrote:
Freckles wrote:Porky said:
"
You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why."

It sounds more like a game of tag, hide n seek, or maybe paint ball games. But games not something so deadly GZ was afraid for his life, so afraid GZ thought he would end up in a vegetative state. Rather staged comments. Further, as was pointed out earlier by K Z , TM had ONE FOURTH of his heart blown away! What opportunities did TM have to THINK and to ACKNOWLEDGE let alone SPEAK those words? He could not have uttered a bloodcurdling scream or even moan in pain. It was over. The door was slammed.

--a post by "KZ" on this subject:

--KZ---:The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.
KZ' comments are worth re-posting. I had not read these comments before. Reading them now is certainly enlightening. Thank you for sharing, ellejay.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Porky on Tue May 22, 2012 2:22 pm

I too appreciate the posting by KZ and any illumination of the science of what happened is certainly useful. To be clear though, I realize that is was possible for Travon to utter those words from a physiological standpoint-- the choice of words did not make sense under the circumstance.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Cubs Fan on Tue May 22, 2012 3:06 pm

I agree that if the beating took place as GZ described then both Trayvon & GZ would have had at least bruising on their hands - has any one seen any evidence that Trayvon's phone or the ice tea was tested for DNA? Those would have been Trayvon's only weapons other than his fists... although shoes could do some damage, too. I suppose it is possible that Trayvon used what he had on him to beat the shit out of GZ, as he stood his ground against a possible stalker.

On another note - the screaming... I imagine that if I was being attacked and screaming for help, I would not stop screaming after I shot my attacker, as I would still need help. Even if I shot the guy & he was laying on the ground I'd still be in a panic & would continue to scream, especially if he had beat me & broken my nose. So I am 99% convinced the screaming for help was Trayvon, GZ still needed help & should have wanted someone to call 911 to get him that help even after he shot Trayvon. So IF on the 1% chance GZ was the one who was screaming on the 911 calls, he stopped & went into CYA mode pretty darn quickly after the bullet left his gun. Could that be malicious intent?
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Puzzler on Tue May 22, 2012 3:19 pm

We need more "facts".

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 3:20 pm

Cubs Fan wrote:I agree that if the beating took place as GZ described then both Trayvon & GZ would have had at least bruising on their hands - has any one seen any evidence that Trayvon's phone or the ice tea was tested for DNA? Those would have been Trayvon's only weapons other than his fists... although shoes could do some damage, too. I suppose it is possible that Trayvon used what he had on him to beat the shit out of GZ, as he stood his ground against a possible stalker.

On another note - the screaming... I imagine that if I was being attacked and screaming for help, I would not stop screaming after I shot my attacker, as I would still need help. Even if I shot the guy & he was laying on the ground I'd still be in a panic & would continue to scream, especially if he had beat me & broken my nose. So I am 99% convinced the screaming for help was Trayvon, GZ still needed help & should have wanted someone to call 911 to get him that help even after he shot Trayvon. So IF on the 1% chance GZ was the one who was screaming on the 911 calls, he stopped & went into CYA mode pretty darn quickly after the bullet left his gun. Could that be malicious intent?

I totally agree. The screaming would not have stopped immediately as did on the 911 tape. Zimmerman just shoots someone dead and suddenly becomes calm and no longer needs help? I too find that rediculous. Also, I don't know of many people that while getting their head banged on the pavement over and over again, would be able to let out a steady scream for help.

I do believe that Zimmerman is going to have a problem when this gets to trial.


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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Gizmo711 on Tue May 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Puzzler wrote:We need more "facts".


Hopefully some more will be coming out soon...

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Cubs Fan wrote:I agree that if the beating took place as GZ described then both Trayvon & GZ would have had at least bruising on their hands - has any one seen any evidence that Trayvon's phone or the ice tea was tested for DNA? Those would have been Trayvon's only weapons other than his fists... although shoes could do some damage, too. I suppose it is possible that Trayvon used what he had on him to beat the shit out of GZ, as he stood his ground against a possible stalker.

On another note - the screaming... I imagine that if I was being attacked and screaming for help, I would not stop screaming after I shot my attacker, as I would still need help. Even if I shot the guy & he was laying on the ground I'd still be in a panic & would continue to scream, especially if he had beat me & broken my nose. So I am 99% convinced the screaming for help was Trayvon, GZ still needed help & should have wanted someone to call 911 to get him that help even after he shot Trayvon. So IF on the 1% chance GZ was the one who was screaming on the 911 calls, he stopped & went into CYA mode pretty darn quickly after the bullet left his gun. Could that be malicious intent?

IIRC, the tea can was in the center pocket of the hoodie. It was removed by one of the first responders (LE, I forget the officers name) after TM was turned and to start chest compressions.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Lash on Tue May 22, 2012 4:23 pm

Porky wrote:Lash

Let's say we buy what you are saying. Do you agree that the intent is to kill if one shoots another at point blank in the heart area?

Hi Porky!

I can only speak for myself. My intention would not be to kill. My only intention would be to stop the threat.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by KZ on Tue May 22, 2012 5:08 pm

Gizmo711 wrote:I don't for a second believe that Trayvon said such a thing. No one and especially a teenager would come out with such a remark. The screaming stop the second the shot was fired and Trayvon died instantly. he had no time to utter a sound moreless a sentence. And had he had enough time, I doubt very much it would have been "you got me". If anything at all, he may have said in a surprise tone "you shot me", but I even doubt that. That bullit killed Trayvon the instant it hit him.

The process of dying is rarely instantaneous. The times that it is instantaneous involve massive head trauma. Sadly, dying takes time-- depending on what someone is dying of.

With a GSW to the chest, the collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. He was shot in the chest, not the head. It actually takes several seconds to a minute to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained.

It's possible (and likely) that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds after the bullet wound is not only a true possiblilty, but almost certain, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring.

I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma. In the OR, I have seen thousands of people lose and regain consciousness. LOC from a small caliber handgun GSW to the chest would not be instantaneous.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 5:10 pm

DebFrmHell wrote:

IIRC, the tea can was in the center pocket of the hoodie. It was removed by one of the first responders (LE, I forget the officers name) after TM was turned and to start chest compressions.


--i wonder when/and why trayvon put the can (that we now know is actually arizona watermelon fruit juice cocktail by the way) into his hoodie pocket.

--when he left the 7-11 the clerk had given it to him in a tan coloured plastic bag, the bag was found on the sidewalk, evidence marker #2.



--LE didn't remove the can during their 6 minutes of chest compressions, it was SFD fire fighter stacey livingston that did when they arrived on scene. she felt it in the hoodie pocket when she lifted his hoodie/and shirt to view the bullet wound, and says she took it out of the front pocket and placed it beside the body.

--i don't know who decided to use it as a 'weight' on the yellow blanket covering the body.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 6:14 pm

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Photos of the holster:
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 6:30 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Photos of the holster:

Thank you very much for posting those pictures. I still need to take some time with Picasa to figure out what I am doing. LOL! If I can just get it to my desktop, I can repost it thru Image Shack.

I really need to figure out screen captures. Typing out things I find in the 183 is just tedious.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 6:47 pm

DebFrmHell wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:
DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Photos of the holster:

Thank you very much for posting those pictures. I still need to take some time with Picasa to figure out what I am doing. LOL! If I can just get it to my desktop, I can repost it thru Image Shack.

I really need to figure out screen captures. Typing out things I find in the 183 is just tedious.

I hope this can help you with screen captures, it is quite easy with the snipping tool.

How To Capture a Screen Shot with the Snipping Tool in Windows Vista / Windows 7

http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/microsoft/ht/snippingtool.htm
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 7:08 pm

I am on the old XP Pro. I will figure it out. I am old and stubborn.
It is the Texan in me. lololol.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by ellejay on Tue May 22, 2012 7:30 pm

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent
Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder.

Here are the key ways in which their stories changed.

--more@link---



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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue May 22, 2012 8:43 pm

Tuesday, May. 22, 2012

Trayvon Martin's family to speak in East St. Louis

Family members of Trayvon Martin, who was shot to death in February in Florida, will speak at a noon rally Friday in East St. Louis.

Trayvon Martin's parents, Tracy Martin, an East St. Louis native, and Sybrina Fulton will address the public during the Bi-State Youth and Community Stop the Violence rally at North End Missionary Baptist Church, 463 N. 88th St.

http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/21/2183855/trayvon-martins-family-to-speak.html

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Tue May 22, 2012 8:46 pm

ellejay wrote:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent
Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder.

Here are the key ways in which their stories changed.

--more@link---




"Let her know what's happening, been involved in a shooting and will be held for questioning," the witness told the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. "He was more like, talking like he was having a hard time, looked like he just got his butt whipped ... not like he was in shock, not like, 'I can't believe I just shot someone,' but like, 'Just tell my wife I just shot someone,' like it was nothing."

Ahhhh. The World Famous 1/5 quote... It plays much better than the first half when he actually is using GZs words.
____________________________________________________________



A woman identified as witness 5 walked out of her home after hearing the altercation to find Zimmerman standing over Martin's body. She said she asked him what was going on and he curtly said just, "Call the police."


The woman told police that Zimmerman, 28, examined Martin's body as he slowly paced back and forth when the police arrived. She watched as they checked the teen's body and turned him over, eventually starting CPR. But he was already dead for five or 10 minutes, she said.

"I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die," witness 5 told investigators. "If you're in self defense, shoot him in the leg. He's a 17-year-old, scrawny little kid. You get into a physical fight with him. ... I think the kid was running for help."

There is no way Witness 5 knew of the age for TM. She had no way to know because he didn't even have an ID on him. Even paramedics or personnel from the MEs office had him at approx 20yrs of age.

So after all of the media exposure where TM was intentionally imaged as a 13yr old would influence her statement. Now weeks later, Zimmerman intended for TM to die and that TM was running for help? With not one factual peice of evidence to confirm either?

I must go read her original statement. Since that is fresh and without somewhat biased reporting.



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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Tue May 22, 2012 9:49 pm

Well, if you had seen someone get killed right outside your door, you might have both an intellectual response/recollection of the event, as well as an emotional response to the demeanor of the shooter who is standing there, and a general visceral reaction to what you witnessed. I would guess that witness 5 referred to Martin's exact age in a later interview. Just because the story was (finally) reported in the media some time after the event, does not ABSOLUTELY negate the validity of witness's recollections.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 12:28 am

angela_nw wrote:Well, if you had seen someone get killed right outside your door, you might have both an intellectual response/recollection of the event, as well as an emotional response to the demeanor of the shooter who is standing there, and a general visceral reaction to what you witnessed. I would guess that witness 5 referred to Martin's exact age in a later interview. Just because the story was (finally) reported in the media some time after the event, does not ABSOLUTELY negate the validity of witness's recollections.
The point remains that
1) She was not a witness to the shooting only the aftermath.
2) She says she thinks that TM was running away. Thinks it not saw it.

The only witness statement that I could find from a female and says directly in handwriting that Zimmerman told her to call the police also doesn't come close to what is being reported in the article.

"Intended for him to die" WTH? Where did that come from?


Original statement 2/26/12

I was in the kitchen and heard someone yelling almost crying. Then I heard a gunshot. I went outside and saw a man on top of a guy laying on the ground. He was putting his hands on his neck or chest. I yelled "Everything OK?" and he did not reply. I said it again "Is everything OK?" He said to call the police.

My roomate called 911.
The only ear witnesses I know of that had roommates were Mary Cutcher and Selma Lamilla and they have been all over the media including AC360 and CNN.
From the NYTimes (5/17/12):
Two witnesses' accounts
Selma Mora Lamilla and Mary Cutcher said they ran to their back porch after hearing “whining” and a gunshot. Ms. Lamilla said she saw Mr. Zimmerman on top with his knees straddling Trayvon. Ms. Cutcher went inside to call 911 and returned to find Mr. Zimmerman pacing

From 3/16/12:


From CNN (3/18/12):
MARY CUTCHER, WITNESS: I firmly believe this was not self-defense.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meeting Trayvon Martin's family for the first time, Mary Cutcher and Selma Lamilla, dropped a bomb during a press conference, saying they witnessed the 17-year-old getting shot, and they were ignored by police.

CUTCHER: What we heard, what we saw that we believe in our hearts 100 percent, it was not self-defense. I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sanford police never arrested Zimmerman because they had no evidence the shooting was not self- defense. But the witnesses say they tried to call police four times to get a statement, and their calls were not returned.

SELMA LAMILLA, WITNESS: We believe as a gun was pointed at a 17-year- old child. He pled for his life and George Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN CORRESPONDENT: The case has devastated the family, outraged the community and put the police department under fire.

But a grieving mother says, for these witnesses, she is grateful.

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: And just to know that, regardless what happens, there's still good people in this world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Contrast this to the statements she gave Serino on 3/1 and 3/2 along with her 2/26 original hand written statement. Three (3!) interviews and yet they now claim that "He intended for this kid to die" and that they were ignored by the Police.

That is some morph job.


Look at the dates.
Can you really say that Cutcher and Lamilla have not been influenced in their now recall of the events that night? Seriously?



Last edited by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I did my own erroneous reporting.)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 12:45 am

Just one more tibit about Witness 5...
From Officer Jonathon Mead:
On 2/26/2012
I responded to the above location in reference to a shots fired call. Part of my assistance in this case was to collect witness statements from residence. I observed a female on the back porch of (redacted) I asked (redacted) if she had witnesses anything and she replied stating, no but my roommate did. I requested her to find her room mate and ask if she would provide a sworn statement in regards to what she had witnesses. (redacted) advised she would look for her.

Several minutes later I returned and met with (redacted) and her room mate (redacted)I requested a sworn statement but both (redacted) and (redacted) advised they were afraid and did not want to assist in providing a statement.

Again several minutes later, (redacted) called me over to her porch. (redacted) stated that (redacted) decided that she would provide a sworn statement and (redacted) would write for her due to translation (redacted) provided me a written statement sworn to by (redacted) based on (redacted) testimony.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 1:07 am

see next post - found the first statement in the pdf


Last edited by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 1:40 am

Photobucket
(Cutcher &) Lamilla statement 2/26/12

I am not sure where to find their statements from 3/1 and 3/2??


Last edited by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 2:24 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : trying to link to single pic)
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by Freckles on Wed May 23, 2012 1:50 am

angela_nw wrote:Photobucket

(Cutcher &) Lamilla statement 2/26/12

I am not sure where to find their statements from 3/1 and 3/2??
Wonderful find.
Can someone post a pic of page two of this link? It has an excellent map.
To get there, click on the letter Angela shared.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 2:01 am

angela_nw wrote:Is Cutcher's roommate Lamilla the one who needed a translation? I will go back and read the pdf with witness statements. (I assume their statements are in the 183-pg pdf?)
Or do you have a link for their progression of statements?

That is correct. Crutcher is the "spokesperson" for Lamilla in those statements because of translation issues. The progression of their statements are compiled from the 8 page Witness List, from reading officer reports in the 183 page doc dump, from Googling Crutcher and Lamilla and looking at the dates to put them in some kind of correct order.

I call that doing my homework. I ((hearts) me some research. When I find something that catches my eye, I try to save it to Word. Officer reports were catching my eye because there is a lot in there that the SPD was accused of not doing. The witness report from Officer Mead got my attention because they didn't want to make an original statement after they had already been all over television.

I am a nerd.

Freckles. It is not a "find." It is in the 183 page doc dump.

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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 2:05 am

OK - I am assuming that this may be the media-reported version of Lamilla/Cutcher's statements in March? (see following). Obviously this is their opinion rather than their witness statement -- but it may well be Lamilla's opinion from Zimmerman's demeanor. When I saw Cutcher/Lamilla on tv my feeling was that they were pissed off that their follow-up calls to PD were ignored, and that their opinion that the voice they heard was that of Trayvon NOT Zimmerman was being suppressed by PD as well. I did not feel their more "subjective" version was a result of the media but rather of their own sense that as close witnesses their opinion needed to be aired. They were not the only witnesses who said their opinion/statements were manipulated by PD.

"The woman told police that Zimmerman, 28, examined Martin's body as he slowly paced back and forth when the police arrived. She watched as they checked the teen's body and turned him over, eventually starting CPR. But he was already dead for five or 10 minutes, she said.
"I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die," witness 5 told investigators. "If you're in self defense, shoot him in the leg. He's a 17-year-old, scrawny little kid. You get into a physical fight with him. ... I think the kid was running for help."
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Post by angela_nw on Wed May 23, 2012 2:09 am

DebFrmHell wrote: The witness report from Officer Mead got my attention because they didn't want to make an original statement after they had already been all over television.

Wait - I thought they did not want to give an original statement on the night of the shooting? They said they were scared - ok, reasonable enough - then they changed their minds. Once they realized later that PD was saying that Zimmerman was the one screaming, they came out publicly with their opinion.
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Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

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