Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

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Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 11:34 am

HOneysage,

what kind of dogs did the Celis' have??
Do we know?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Honeysage on Sun May 27, 2012 11:37 am

Tamta wrote:HOneysage,

what kind of dogs did the Celis' have??
Do we know?

there is a photo of Isa with a white terrier type dog an then when they were talking with Alicia the neighbor they showed a shepherd type dog and i saw a video of another dog tied up outside-tan looking short haired mixed breed. so, i am making assumptions based on those glimpses.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Honeysage on Sun May 27, 2012 11:38 am

Calypso wrote:We cant cut and paste off those documents? Man!

(Fart noise!)

i know! you can do a screenshot-which i just figured out how to do ...unfortunately i don't know how to get it from my desktop onto the page.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 11:39 am

Honeysage wrote:
Tamta wrote:HOneysage,

what kind of dogs did the Celis' have??
Do we know?

there is a photo of Isa with a white terrier type dog an then when they were talking with Alicia the neighbor they showed a shepherd type dog and i saw a video of another dog tied up outside-tan looking short haired mixed breed. so, i am making assumptions based on those glimpses.

i could not remember the 3rd.
thanks.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 11:40 am

references to blood on the window??

or just isa's room?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Honeysage on Sun May 27, 2012 12:01 pm

Calypso wrote:Has anyone come across a list of friends/family who were called on the morning of 4-20 prior to police arrival?


there is this list-but it does not include baseball coach....so i don't know how complete it is. i wonder if Justin was the "uncle" that left and LE stated they never got his name (end of 1st paragraph)
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 12:02 pm

Honeysage wrote:
Calypso wrote:Has anyone come across a list of friends/family who were called on the morning of 4-20 prior to police arrival?


there is this list-but it does not include baseball coach....so i don't know how complete it is. i wonder if Justin was the "uncle" that left and LE stated they never got his name (end of 1st paragraph)



Last edited by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : self corrected error)
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by SweetT on Sun May 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Tamta wrote:RE: The Shower Curtain

BBM

IT was tested for blood.
Results redacted from report.
No results reported for other substances on the shower curtain (though sounds as if they did search for other substances just not first, 'immediately').

A white hat and a green vinyl shower curtain with "dark red-brown or brown stains" were found in a 1988 Acura parked on the Celis property, reports show.

The shower curtain stain was tested for blood, but those results were redacted in the report released Thursday night.

Police did not immediately search for other stains on the shower curtain.

"It was decided to keep the item close to its original condition and allow crime lab personnel to screen the shower curtain for possible evidence, if deemed necessary," the report says.


More at link.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/police-collected-varied-evidence-in-disappearance/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html

i wonder if these stains could be hair dye my daughter is always dying her hair and leaving stains in the shower, on the curtain on the rug in the bathroom ugh, drives me nuts.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun May 27, 2012 12:11 pm

SweetT wrote:
Tamta wrote:RE: The Shower Curtain

BBM

IT was tested for blood.
Results redacted from report.
No results reported for other substances on the shower curtain (though sounds as if they did search for other substances just not first, 'immediately').

A white hat and a green vinyl shower curtain with "dark red-brown or brown stains" were found in a 1988 Acura parked on the Celis property, reports show.

The shower curtain stain was tested for blood, but those results were redacted in the report released Thursday night.

Police did not immediately search for other stains on the shower curtain.

"It was decided to keep the item close to its original condition and allow crime lab personnel to screen the shower curtain for possible evidence, if deemed necessary," the report says.


More at link.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/police-collected-varied-evidence-in-disappearance/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html

i wonder if these stains could be hair dye my daughter is always dying her hair and leaving stains in the shower, on the curtain on the rug in the bathroom ugh, drives me nuts.

Well my thought was that since it was vinyl and recovered relatively early in regard to when the 'crime' could have been committed that the colouration and state of the stain would have been described as different if it was blood.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by SweetT on Sun May 27, 2012 12:32 pm

Tamta: I agree
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Honeysage on Sun May 27, 2012 8:48 pm

http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/154854365.html
Chief Villasenor: "We will find out"

"It may be someone with this weighing on their conscience," Villasenor said. "They may know something or know someone who does and they're fighting the urge to call us. Stop fighting it and just call."

"I wouldn't rest comfortably," Villasenor said. "I've got very talented, very dedicated people working on this all the time. We will find out."
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Julie on Mon May 28, 2012 9:30 am

Blood found in missing Isabel’s bedroom?

May 28th, 2012

08:19 AM ET



http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/28/blood-found-in-missing-isabels-bedroom/

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Julie on Mon May 28, 2012 9:32 am

Dr. Henry Lee on possible blood in Isabel’s home

May 28th, 2012

08:20 AM ET



http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/28/dr-henry-lee-on-possible-blood-in-isabels-home/

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Mon May 28, 2012 3:59 pm

Julie wrote:Blood found in missing Isabel’s bedroom?

May 28th, 2012

08:19 AM ET



http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/28/blood-found-in-missing-isabels-bedroom/
At 1:04 there is a slightly different sketch of the floor print of the house.
I find it odd the front bedroom layout and then the back den.
I would think the front bedroom, having an entrance only through the front living room, would have been the den; the back room ID'ed as a den, would have been a bedroom. No ease to a bathroom if we are to assume this is correct rendition.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Mon May 28, 2012 4:04 pm

Message "scrawled" in closet:
Could this have been written by one of the sibs?
Boys are 10 and 14. House was built ? 2004 ????
They appear the first to occupy the home in ?? 2005 ??
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Julie on Mon May 28, 2012 4:09 pm

I agree Freckles, that whole layout is weird.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by mom2chloe on Mon May 28, 2012 5:00 pm

Apologies if this was previously asked, but do we know who the disabled car belonged to? Is this the same car the shower curtain and white hat were found in? Thanks in advance.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by sitemama on Mon May 28, 2012 5:13 pm

Now that I have printed off the layout of the house, I don't see a door out of the front of the house. But ther are doors from the den and mater bedroom to the porch. If she was taken by someone else, it could have been after dad went to bed. Did he go the long way thru the family room, breakfast nook into bedroom, or did he just go out thru the porch? Much shorter distance, and did he even bother to lock the door back?

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 5:30 pm

mom2chloe wrote:Apologies if this was previously asked, but do we know who the disabled car belonged to? Is this the same car the shower curtain and white hat were found in? Thanks in advance.

That information was released in the first week of the investigation.
I believe LE said it belonged to the Celis'.

You can check PC's or news articles for around 4/20-4/27 for reference to it.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 5:39 pm

Freckles wrote:
Ellie Tza wrote:
Ellie Tza wrote:I had only been able to find a tiny image of the Celis Home floorplan, so I made a larger one and included a few more details (street names and such). I hope this might be helpful to some of you.

Photobucket
After I went to all this trouble, pretty please use this better image of the floorplan! ;-P
Bringing this forward.

@Sitemama,

Sitemama,

There is a front door. It is on the north side of the house off of the living room, right in the center. It accesses what is labeled the front yard.

Leaving the front door you would walk west(left) to the 'gate' in the adobe wall which is adjacent to the drive way. This access is seen in quite a few news videos, particularly the one where investigators bring BC SC and Sergio Jr to the house for a reconstruction.

Unless there was a vehicle parked in front of the garage by that front access to the house, I would think that the back of the house would have been a more likely exit point for whoever removed Isabel. There is actually an 'rv' type gate on the west side of the wooden fence(behind the garage somewhat) that directly accesses the side street to the west of the Celis house. (They live on a corner lot and there is also an alley behind their home.)

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 5:41 pm

Freckles wrote:Message "scrawled" in closet:
Could this have been written by one of the sibs?
Boys are 10 and 14. House was built ? 2004 ????
They appear the first to occupy the home in ?? 2005 ??

House built 2005 I think, they bought it 2006.
I am not sure what year they added the garage.

Writing on the walls in a house with 3 kids? BIG DEAL.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 5:43 pm

Julie wrote:I agree Freckles, that whole layout is weird.

It looks like the whole west side was added on:

Master BR and Bath
Garage
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Julie on Mon May 28, 2012 6:05 pm

Tamta wrote:
Julie wrote:I agree Freckles, that whole layout is weird.

It looks like the whole west side was added on:

Master BR and Bath
Garage

Could be. One thing on Ellie's map that makes more sense than NG's, is Ellie's map shows a hallway leading to the other bedroom. NG's map made it look like to go from the front corner bedroom, you'd have to walk through the LR, make a U-turn at the FR, walk the distance of the FR, to get to Isabel's bedroom.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Julie wrote:
Tamta wrote:
Julie wrote:I agree Freckles, that whole layout is weird.

It looks like the whole west side was added on:

Master BR and Bath
Garage

Could be. One thing on Ellie's map that makes more sense than NG's, is Ellie's map shows a hallway leading to the other bedroom. NG's map made it look like to go from the front corner bedroom, you'd have to walk through the LR, make a U-turn at the FR, walk the distance of the FR, to get to Isabel's bedroom.

Ellie's is good.

House was not bought with garage.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Julie on Mon May 28, 2012 6:16 pm

Hmm, then maybe all of that is add ons. And the den was probably originally a third bedroom.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Mon May 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Julie wrote:Hmm, then maybe all of that is add ons. And the den was probably originally a third bedroom.

I think so.
I do not think any part of the west side was there when they bought it.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Tue May 29, 2012 12:53 am

mom2chloe wrote:Apologies if this was previously asked, but do we know who the disabled car belonged to? Is this the same car the shower curtain and white hat were found in? Thanks in advance.
Said it was a white shower curtain but it looked pale green to me! At least the one in the car. Are there two? Did I understand they recovered potential blood from a shower curtain in the house?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Tue May 29, 2012 12:57 am

Can someone re-post the tax records/real estate record?
IIRC, the house was NEW to them.
Why then, in such a short period of time, would they have added on to it?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Ellie Tza on Tue May 29, 2012 1:11 am

Can someone tell me where the idea that the house was changed/expanded/added onto is coming from?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Tue May 29, 2012 1:34 am

Ellie Tza wrote:Can someone tell me where the idea that the house was changed/expanded/added onto is coming from?

Me.
It was not assessed nor bought from by the Celis with a garage.

If you look at your floor plan, try to imagine the Master Bedroom part of the house without the garage.
It does not make sense- though it may have been there and reconfigured by part of
it being made into a garage.

It is a big house.
I think the whole west side was added on, hence all of the discussion about square footage.

Maybe the den used to be a bedroom.
Who knows?


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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Stolat on Tue May 29, 2012 11:24 am

Tamta wrote:
SweetT wrote:
Tamta wrote:RE: The Shower Curtain

BBM

IT was tested for blood.
Results redacted from report.
No results reported for other substances on the shower curtain (though sounds as if they did search for other substances just not first, 'immediately').

A white hat and a green vinyl shower curtain with "dark red-brown or brown stains" were found in a 1988 Acura parked on the Celis property, reports show.

The shower curtain stain was tested for blood, but those results were redacted in the report released Thursday night.

Police did not immediately search for other stains on the shower curtain.

"It was decided to keep the item close to its original condition and allow crime lab personnel to screen the shower curtain for possible evidence, if deemed necessary," the report says.


More at link.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/police-collected-varied-evidence-in-disappearance/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html

i wonder if these stains could be hair dye my daughter is always dying her hair and leaving stains in the shower, on the curtain on the rug in the bathroom ugh, drives me nuts.

Well my thought was that since it was vinyl and recovered relatively early in regard to when the 'crime' could have been committed that the colouration and state of the stain would have been described as different if it was blood.

I'll throw this in the mix... on Friday NG claims they rec'd reports that it was fabric, not vinyl - which indicates the exterior curtain as opposed to the liner

GRACE: Well, long story short, we learned that some type of message had been scrawled on the inside of the wall of Isabel`s closet. We are also learning a blood-like substance found on the floor of her room. And based on everything we know, based on the exterior of the home and the blueprint that we obtained, that is her bedroom.

What can you tell me -- Neal Karlinsky joining us tonight, everyone, ABC News correspondent -- regarding a white shower curtain in that family car, the red car that was parked in the driveway, the car that wouldn`t crank up, that nobody would use? That was parked in the driveway. We have video -- pull it, Liz -- of police removing fabric and pillows from the car.

Tonight, we learn that fabric is a white shower curtain with similar stains on it, blood-like stains on it.

don't know if these reports are accurate or not.

Also gleaned from the show (this may have already been posted over the weekend) but there are two cars which were luminol tested and indicated 'positive': The non-driving red Integra Acura parked outside (which neighbors say have not moved since they lived there) and drivers seat of the family car, the Toyota Corolla. So two cars with blood-positive luminol results.

What will be interesting to find is whether Isa's blood is the blood on the drivers side. Mucho 'schplain'n to do if so...
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Stolat on Tue May 29, 2012 11:54 am

What I also thought was interesting was the question around the Wolverine boot prints left on the utility (or meter?) box near the fence. The question raised was whether there were matching prints on the *outside* of the wall just over the fence, or are the prints retained to the interior of the fence? That would say a lot if so - it would tell me that someone stepped on the box from inside the wall to stage an intrusion scene - but they failed to follow the logical steps over the wall to show that a perp actually was on the other side of the fence. Those details have not yet been released. I would think blood on the drivers seat and staged footprints would be very close to what police would need to start forming a solid theory. Would also want to know if the prints are from a boot that are same size as Sergio and/or Justin. Sergio was pictured with Wolverine boots on, although that boot type is not uncommon (and I can no longer find the video that shows his feet -- but NG metioned it on her show as well).
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by color77 on Tue May 29, 2012 2:11 pm

Snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor

" In addition, one report noted officers found "some potential evidence in a wash, a bed sheet and a bed skirt."

Also snipped from : http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563532/pdf-celis-4-found-pillow-possible-sightings

This link breaks down all the PDF files in sections, (1-5)easier to read, this was on pg 2 of 2 from PDF 4, TPD1204421026 SUPPLEMENTARY NARRATIVE . " tip 320 stated a twin size pale pink blanket was seen Sunday Morning April 22 @ 9am northside of the Pantano Wash. At 10am I responded to the area and located a matching blanket laying on the Pantano bridge sidewalk. I photographed the blanket then put it in a plastic bag and transfered it to the midtown substation where I placed into evidence."

I remember they searched the wash and it seems to me if that bedding didnt match Isa's they wouldnt have bothered, IMO of course. Also, bedding is in the wash, which they must of thought was significant to have named it "poetential evidence"....

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by color77 on Tue May 29, 2012 2:49 pm

Snipped http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18629424/documents-reveal-initial-conversations-between-celis-parents-and-tpd


In one report, a TPD detective provides a thorough synopsis of his conversations with Sergio and Becky Celis just hours after they reported their daughter missing. The officer writes that a "visibly upset" Becky asks whether police had "contacted officials at the U.S./Mexican border."

I could be completely over analzying here, but I again just find this question to have an underlying reason to ask it. I live somewhat close to the border of another country and if my kid went missing I am not sure that would be an inital reaction, that someone took my kid and was heading out of the country with them....I think her statements allude to the fact that she somehow knows why she is missing, and where she is possibly headed, but doesnt say so?! I cant help to wonder if its out of fear? The 911 call with her voice on it gives me chills, you can hear the panic & horror....days later she is seemingly calm, her and Sergio announcing the reward $ is ready , and "tell us your demands"... IMO she knows.

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Stolat on Tue May 29, 2012 3:09 pm

color77 wrote:Snipped http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18629424/documents-reveal-initial-conversations-between-celis-parents-and-tpd


In one report, a TPD detective provides a thorough synopsis of his conversations with Sergio and Becky Celis just hours after they reported their daughter missing. The officer writes that a "visibly upset" Becky asks whether police had "contacted officials at the U.S./Mexican border."

I could be completely over analzying here, but I again just find this question to have an underlying reason to ask it. I live somewhat close to the border of another country and if my kid went missing I am not sure that would be an inital reaction, that someone took my kid and was heading out of the country with them....I think her statements allude to the fact that she somehow knows why she is missing, and where she is possibly headed, but doesnt say so?! I cant help to wonder if its out of fear? The 911 call with her voice on it gives me chills, you can hear the panic & horror....days later she is seemingly calm, her and Sergio announcing the reward $ is ready , and "tell us your demands"... IMO she knows.

It's funny how we have different reactions -- but if I lived that close to the border AND if I were not involved in the coverup of a crime, I would first and foremost likely hope for the scenario which would best indicate that my child were still alive -- that would be kidnapping with the intent to sell into child trafficking. Because sexual molestation almost always ends in immediate subsequent murder. At least with child trafficking there is the hope that time still exists to intervene and intercept. And what most logical way to facilitate child trafficking than to first get the child out of the country and out of country jurisdiction and legal protection and police resources. So yes, that would be my first thought that A) my child would still be alive and B) that someone most logically would try to sneak them out of the country as soon as possible.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by color77 on Tue May 29, 2012 3:19 pm

Stolat wrote:
color77 wrote:Snipped http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18629424/documents-reveal-initial-conversations-between-celis-parents-and-tpd


In one report, a TPD detective provides a thorough synopsis of his conversations with Sergio and Becky Celis just hours after they reported their daughter missing. The officer writes that a "visibly upset" Becky asks whether police had "contacted officials at the U.S./Mexican border."

I could be completely over analzying here, but I again just find this question to have an underlying reason to ask it. I live somewhat close to the border of another country and if my kid went missing I am not sure that would be an inital reaction, that someone took my kid and was heading out of the country with them....I think her statements allude to the fact that she somehow knows why she is missing, and where she is possibly headed, but doesnt say so?! I cant help to wonder if its out of fear? The 911 call with her voice on it gives me chills, you can hear the panic & horror....days later she is seemingly calm, her and Sergio announcing the reward $ is ready , and "tell us your demands"... IMO she knows.

It's funny how we have different reactions -- but if I lived that close to the border AND if I were not involved in the coverup of a crime, I would first and foremost likely hope for the scenario which would best indicate that my child were still alive -- that would be kidnapping with the intent to sell into child trafficking. Because sexual molestation almost always ends in immediate subsequent murder. At least with child trafficking there is the hope that time still exists to intervene and intercept. And what most logical way to facilitate child trafficking than to first get the child out of the country and out of country jurisdiction and legal protection and police resources. So yes, that would be my first thought that A) my child would still be alive and B) that someone most logically would try to sneak them out of the country as soon as possible.

Maybe, and I completely respect your opinion, but how many kids are taken from thier homes in the middle of the night with two grown adults that we know of , a teenage boy, a younger sibling, 3 dogs that according to neighbors were not quiet, removed undetected, then sold into child trafficking? I cant think of many cases where this has happened that way. If you read through the PDF's theres quite a bit of speculation someone in this family owed quite a big drug debt, seems to me with all thats been said and the reaction/statements of Isa's parents that this idea is not so far fetched. I will go back and copy/paste the witnesses statments , but I believe this the angle that is going to prove exactly whats taken place here, IMO of course :)

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Stolat on Tue May 29, 2012 3:48 pm

color77 wrote:
Stolat wrote:
color77 wrote:Snipped http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18629424/documents-reveal-initial-conversations-between-celis-parents-and-tpd


In one report, a TPD detective provides a thorough synopsis of his conversations with Sergio and Becky Celis just hours after they reported their daughter missing. The officer writes that a "visibly upset" Becky asks whether police had "contacted officials at the U.S./Mexican border."

I could be completely over analzying here, but I again just find this question to have an underlying reason to ask it. I live somewhat close to the border of another country and if my kid went missing I am not sure that would be an inital reaction, that someone took my kid and was heading out of the country with them....I think her statements allude to the fact that she somehow knows why she is missing, and where she is possibly headed, but doesnt say so?! I cant help to wonder if its out of fear? The 911 call with her voice on it gives me chills, you can hear the panic & horror....days later she is seemingly calm, her and Sergio announcing the reward $ is ready , and "tell us your demands"... IMO she knows.

It's funny how we have different reactions -- but if I lived that close to the border AND if I were not involved in the coverup of a crime, I would first and foremost likely hope for the scenario which would best indicate that my child were still alive -- that would be kidnapping with the intent to sell into child trafficking. Because sexual molestation almost always ends in immediate subsequent murder. At least with child trafficking there is the hope that time still exists to intervene and intercept. And what most logical way to facilitate child trafficking than to first get the child out of the country and out of country jurisdiction and legal protection and police resources. So yes, that would be my first thought that A) my child would still be alive and B) that someone most logically would try to sneak them out of the country as soon as possible.

Maybe, and I completely respect your opinion, but how many kids are taken from thier homes in the middle of the night with two grown adults that we know of , a teenage boy, a younger sibling, 3 dogs that according to neighbors were not quiet, removed undetected, then sold into child trafficking? I cant think of many cases where this has happened that way. If you read through the PDF's theres quite a bit of speculation someone in this family owed quite a big drug debt, seems to me with all thats been said and the reaction/statements of Isa's parents that this idea is not so far fetched. I will go back and copy/paste the witnesses statments , but I believe this the angle that is going to prove exactly whats taken place here, IMO of course :)

I understand questioning how a child can be taken without the rest of the family hearing. Of equal merit, how many children are abducted for the purpose of sexual molestation and are taken by *two* men working together? Not that it hasn't happened, it is a very improbable profile and i've seen just as few cases documented.

So assuming someone owed a debt and the child was taken as what ? collateral? debt repayment? If for collateral, where are the money demands? None made so far. We've already read that cops are reviewing their finances. I would imagine this has nothing to do with auditing their taxes, but to see if they're sneaking off and withdrawing funds to repay a debt they wish to keep secret from the police because it implicates someone in the family. As to the second scenario --if for the purpose of debt repayment, how would a child procure any value unless she were exchanged for something of value = money --- which requires child trafficking. So if someone kidnapped Isa because she was collection on bad debt due and the perps were going to sell her off in order to recoup their value owed, then we're still talking about child trafficking .... and we're still talking about the fact that a child trafficker would need to get Isa out of the country.

Does Becky know this? I don't know. If they haven't received any demands thus far, then I think she would know chances are grim that the kidnapping was for the purposes of collecting ransom. If the abduction was for the purpose of child trafficking in order to equalize a debt -- that would mean that Isa would never return -- I don't think she'd be so calm about it. Do I think potentiall Justin is involved -- yeah, somewhere in the back of my mind, but I just haven't figured out how he's connected yetj.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by ishi on Tue May 29, 2012 4:02 pm

I haven't had time this weekend to read the PDF files and I hope to do so soon. And I am still trying to get caught up on this thread but that will have to come later tonight. But I did notice someone mentioned the house up thread. I found this site and if you click on most of the links you learn quite a bit about the permits and such when it was built along with tax info, etc.

http://gis.pima.gov/maps/landbase/detail.cfm?parcel=128030990


Then there is this link that has the floorplan at the assessor's office:

http://www.asr.pima.gov/links/frm_Images.aspx?parcel=128030990&taxyear=2013


It's a very basic block and doesn't show interior walls but once again the sq footage is different than what is recorded on the tax information but the garage is shown. I really don't understand that sq footage discrepancy because they pay taxes based on that higher figure! If they really don't have that many sq feet they need to dispute that sq footage and reduce their taxes.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Tue May 29, 2012 4:03 pm

color77 wrote:Snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor

" In addition, one report noted officers found "some potential evidence in a wash, a bed sheet and a bed skirt."

Also snipped from : http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563532/pdf-celis-4-found-pillow-possible-sightings

This link breaks down all the PDF files in sections, (1-5)easier to read, this was on pg 2 of 2 from PDF 4, TPD1204421026 SUPPLEMENTARY NARRATIVE . " tip 320 stated a twin size pale pink blanket was seen Sunday Morning April 22 @ 9am northside of the Pantano Wash. At 10am I responded to the area and located a matching blanket laying on the Pantano bridge sidewalk. I photographed the blanket then put it in a plastic bag and transfered it to the midtown substation where I placed into evidence."

I remember they searched the wash and it seems to me if that bedding didnt match Isa's they wouldnt have bothered, IMO of course. Also, bedding is in the wash, which they must of thought was significant to have named it "poetential evidence"....
Welcome, color!

Your posting just gave me the chills. Oh, wow.
Oh. Wait a minute! You said some "potential evidence in a wash" and I read that to be in the wash(er) at home!
Here I am wondering have often do we wash the bed-skirts anyway? My error.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Stolat on Tue May 29, 2012 4:09 pm

Freckles wrote:
color77 wrote:Snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor

" In addition, one report noted officers found "some potential evidence in a wash, a bed sheet and a bed skirt."

Also snipped from : http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563532/pdf-celis-4-found-pillow-possible-sightings

This link breaks down all the PDF files in sections, (1-5)easier to read, this was on pg 2 of 2 from PDF 4, TPD1204421026 SUPPLEMENTARY NARRATIVE . " tip 320 stated a twin size pale pink blanket was seen Sunday Morning April 22 @ 9am northside of the Pantano Wash. At 10am I responded to the area and located a matching blanket laying on the Pantano bridge sidewalk. I photographed the blanket then put it in a plastic bag and transfered it to the midtown substation where I placed into evidence."

I remember they searched the wash and it seems to me if that bedding didnt match Isa's they wouldnt have bothered, IMO of course. Also, bedding is in the wash, which they must of thought was significant to have named it "poetential evidence"....
Welcome, color!

Your posting just gave me the chills. Oh, wow.
Oh. Wait a minute! You said some "potential evidence in a wash" and I read that to be in the wash(er) at home!
Here I am wondering have often do we wash the bed-skirts anyway? My error.

My very first take on that was "washer machine" - having kids in the house means I've always got some kind of bedding in "the wash". I had to re-read that like 5 times before I figured out they were talking about a bed of water.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by color77 on Tue May 29, 2012 4:37 pm

@ Freckles, acutally I went back to re read the pdf, the bed skirt and bed sheet was found in the washer at home, they just refered to it as the "wash", the blanket was found on the bridge of the Pantano wash outside the home, I am wondering since it was bagged/photographed if that in fact it matched the description of Isas bedding. I too have little kiddies, but I cant remember the last time I washed thier bed skirts...oh wait yes I do, never. Sheets, pillows, blankets all the time, never the bed skirt. I got chills when I read that too~


@ STOLAT

1- I dont believe the two men theory, i think that woman was asleep and has her times mixed up. I dont think anything like this occured in broad day light, IMPO.

2- I dont think Rebecca Celis knew anything when this intially occured, I believe she was brought "up to date" at a later time by Sergio, & I dont believe her question about authorities contacting the border was just an off the cuff statement, I think in her mind its connected to what she thinks happened to the little girl and where she was heading.( i think she has prior knowledge of drug debt/activity w/in her family to lead her to this conclusion)

It also alarms me that neither of them have been cleared and the results of their poly unrelased. Also curious to know if that blanket found at the wash belonged to Isa?

3-I think the child would procure the debt once a deamand is made. The case is still to hot right now, the drug cartel is known to be patient & wait things out if they believe the $ will eventually come... anyone remember Eduardo Valseca, the cartel waited for almost 8 months to get thier money from his family. They would send emails, then close the account and have the family respond in code in the classifieds of Mexican newspapaers. The public or police had no idea what was going on there behind the scenes, so how do we know that a demand hasnt been made? I guess all I was trying to say about BC statment is that IMO, I dont think you just assume that unless you have a reason behind thinking that way, and again I am totally just speculating based on what I am reading, hearing and watching :)))

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by color77 on Tue May 29, 2012 4:44 pm

@ Freckles, here is the whole dialogue, snipped so that we understand what was being taken from inside and recorded, "A reporting officer wrote, "I took general views of the interior and exterior, I also took views of handwriting on the wall, doorjamb, and inside wall of the closet of the southeast bedroom."
In addition, one report noted officers found "some potential evidence in a wash, a bed sheet and a bed skirt."

color77 wrote:@ Freckles, acutally I went back to re read the pdf, the bed skirt and bed sheet was found in the washer at home, they just refered to it as the "wash", the blanket was found on the bridge of the Pantano wash outside the home, I am wondering since it was bagged/photographed if that in fact it matched the description of Isas bedding. I too have little kiddies, but I cant remember the last time I washed thier bed skirts...oh wait yes I do, never. Sheets, pillows, blankets all the time, never the bed skirt. I got chills when I read that too~


@ STOLAT

1- I dont believe the two men theory, i think that woman was asleep and has her times mixed up. I dont think anything like this occured in broad day light, IMPO.

2- I dont think Rebecca Celis knew anything when this intially occured, I believe she was brought "up to date" at a later time by Sergio, & I dont believe her question about authorities contacting the border was just an off the cuff statement, I think in her mind its connected to what she thinks happened to the little girl and where she was heading.( i think she has prior knowledge of drug debt/activity w/in her family to lead her to this conclusion)

It also alarms me that neither of them have been cleared and the results of their poly unrelased. Also curious to know if that blanket found at the wash belonged to Isa?

3-I think the child would procure the debt once a deamand is made. The case is still to hot right now, the drug cartel is known to be patient & wait things out if they believe the $ will eventually come... anyone remember Eduardo Valseca, the cartel waited for almost 8 months to get thier money from his family. They would send emails, then close the account and have the family respond in code in the classifieds of Mexican newspapaers. The public or police had no idea what was going on there behind the scenes, so how do we know that a demand hasnt been made? I guess all I was trying to say about BC statment is that IMO, I dont think you just assume that unless you have a reason behind thinking that way, and again I am totally just speculating based on what I am reading, hearing and watching :)))

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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Tue May 29, 2012 5:23 pm

Do we have a link and maybe a page to the pdf on the bed skirt?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Freckles on Tue May 29, 2012 5:25 pm

Color- I would wash all curtains, blankets, etc. 4 times a year to coincide with the 4 seasons.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by ishi on Tue May 29, 2012 6:06 pm

Vinnie Politan is talking abt the Celis case today on his show that just started.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by SweetT on Tue May 29, 2012 6:17 pm

Does it tell the color of the bed sheet and bed skirt? It says the blanket was pink..is this two blankets? or are they stating this blanket matches the bed sheet and skirt? Kind of confusing.

"This link breaks down all the PDF files in sections, (1-5)easier to read, this was on pg 2 of 2 from PDF 4, TPD1204421026 SUPPLEMENTARY NARRATIVE . " tip 320 stated a twin size pale pink blanket was seen Sunday Morning April 22 @ 9am northside of the Pantano Wash. At 10am I responded to the area and located a matching blanket laying on the Pantano bridge sidewalk. I photographed the blanket then put it in a plastic bag and transfered it to the midtown substation where I placed into evidence."
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Honeysage on Tue May 29, 2012 6:58 pm

http://azstarnet.com/mobi/latest/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html
Police collected varied evidence in disappearance

A bedsheet, bed skirt and a plastic bag that appears to have contained clothing were found in a wash near Downing Lane and Wilshire Drive.
______________________________________________

i don't think any bedding was found in washing machine...it is confusing, but it does appear that "wash" is the outside dry bed. can't get to my PDF links now, but i would like to read it myself.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by SweetT on Tue May 29, 2012 7:13 pm

http://azstarnet.com/mobi/latest/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html

This link states they were not found in a washer at home.

It states the following : " A pale pink, twin-size blanket found hanging in Pantano Wash.

• A Timex watch with a green nylon wristband found in a desert area near St. Joseph's Hospital.

• A plastic bag of clothes that appeared to be for donation on North Swan Road

A bedsheet, bed skirt and a plastic bag that appears to have contained clothing were found in a wash near Downing Lane and Wilshire Drive."

and this

"Among the evidence found was "apparent blood on the floor" in Isabel's bedroom. The stain was tested for blood, but the results were redacted from the report.

Isabel's room was also checked for semen using a "forensic light source," which had negative results."
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by Tamta on Tue May 29, 2012 7:15 pm

SweetT wrote:http://azstarnet.com/mobi/latest/article_4a09bac3-bb6e-5c36-8850-9f0e1b65882a.html

This link states they were not found in a washer at home.

It states the following : " A pale pink, twin-size blanket found hanging in Pantano Wash.

• A Timex watch with a green nylon wristband found in a desert area near St. Joseph's Hospital.

• A plastic bag of clothes that appeared to be for donation on North Swan Road

A bedsheet, bed skirt and a plastic bag that appears to have contained clothing were found in a wash near Downing Lane and Wilshire Drive."

and this

"Among the evidence found was "apparent blood on the floor" in Isabel's bedroom. The stain was tested for blood, but the results were redacted from the report.

Isabel's room was also checked for semen using a "forensic light source," which had negative results."

So we do not know if the blood found in her room is Isa's?
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

Post by SweetT on Tue May 29, 2012 7:17 pm

Tamta: Don't know Jack other than the test for blood was redacted from the report.
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Re: Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12 #2

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