George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Page 18 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:44 am

--looking for something else (usually happens to me..) i was giving a listen again to the closing arguments at the original bond hearing.

--omara mentions "some fund--"that's out there"----says he's aware of it, but has no idea of the $$amount that's in it.

--this is seriously weird TO ME, if he knew of "the fund" (from outside sources) then, as a defense attorney headed to a bond hearing where his client's $$$$ would be in question, he should have asked his client about it.

--if, he about it from george (or family members at the meeting george mentions in the jail call , that clearly his dad, shellie, and others attended WITH omara PRE bond hearing, then he should have asked them-----"how much money are we talking about?(in this fund that i know about) --ALL $$'s have to be noted on the bond app/truthfully disclosed at the hearing.."

--and yet, he ( a seasoned defense attorney w/ years of experience, apparently didn't ask anyone pre-hearing about the $$ amount in the account...????????)

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
--bond hearing---april 20/2012

--@ approx. 2:00

omara---as fr as his financial abilities, unfortunately, this is a family of very short means , umm, you've heard mom & dad testify that they are willing to assist by securing their house, ummm...whatever we can accomplish, we certainly will. I will tell you, umm, that i truly don't know the specifics of some fund that's out there that's not administered by me.

Ummm, I don't know what the amount is, umm but when we look to the assets and the financial picture, picture of my client, we know 1). Unfortunatelty based on these circumstances, h will not be able to work in the public in the near future, so he cannot support himself , he has a wife who is not working presently because she is in school. Umm I'm asking you to consider a reasonable bond in the amount of $15,000.00 that will secure his appearance and there are other conditions.

--(goes on to ask that he be allowed to reside out of state, talks about the GPS, the fact that he has surrendered his one and only passport etc...)

--i still don't trust that omara was blindsided by george days later over the admission of this money.

--ETA--(my keyboard has been invaded by something weird, ignore the fact that there are missing letters non stop...)





avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Puzzler on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:58 am

IMO, after listening to the jail tapes, both George and Shellie come across as "naive".
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:01 am

snipped:

ellejay wrote:
--ETA--(my keyboard has been invaded by something weird, ignore the fact that there are missing letters non stop...)

LOL, that happened to me not too long ago. So I turned my keyboard upside down and shook it, several times, and thanks to my kids, all these eraser shavings and crumbs came falling out. Now it works fine. Very Happy

_________________
This site feels like running free on a playground on a sunny day with the wind in your hair and the birds chirping around you!~~eva

Oh yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of livin' is gone.~~~JM
avatar
Julie
Admin

Posts : 27924
Join date : 2009-10-14
Age : 29
Location : buying balloons for eva's 68th birthday
Mood : Musical

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:22 am

Julie wrote:snipped:

ellejay wrote:
--ETA--(my keyboard has been invaded by something weird, ignore the fact that there are missing letters non stop...)

LOL, that happened to me not too long ago. So I turned my keyboard upside down and shook it, several times, and thanks to my kids, all these eraser shavings and crumbs came falling out. Now it works fine. Very Happy

--ahhhh..thanks julie. i took your advice and shook it outside, so i'm not sure what was lodged in there.

( i must say i'm seriously disgusted as i clean between the keys w/ a Qtip---that compressed air is useless! it clearly doesn't handle a splash of occasional wine...)

--and to be on topic, based on the jail calls, george is perhaps dreaming again of buying shellie something fantastic---"like a scarf" ( which is code for.....?? or, maybe it was, a scarf.) or tomorrow is once again shower day ( apparently not a daily occurence, (ugh)--and he's looking fwd to that...)
avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:43 am

yw ellejay. A Q-tip is a good idea. I've used the compressed air in the tower, but never on the keyboard, which is probably why there was so much crud falling out. LOL

Wine in your keyboard, LOL. drunken

_________________
This site feels like running free on a playground on a sunny day with the wind in your hair and the birds chirping around you!~~eva

Oh yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of livin' is gone.~~~JM
avatar
Julie
Admin

Posts : 27924
Join date : 2009-10-14
Age : 29
Location : buying balloons for eva's 68th birthday
Mood : Musical

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Marica on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:49 am

Most keys will come off and soaked in hot soapy water while you clean the area beneath. I have even disconnected mine and taken the whole board to the kitchen sink where I stood it on end and used my sprayer to rinse it off. I had a little spill.. (whole can of coke) on the key board. Of course I let it dray over night in front of a fan before reconnecting it. Works fine.
avatar
Marica

Posts : 565
Join date : 2012-05-14
Age : 70
Location : Iowa
Mood : Bang Head

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Marica on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:52 am

Oh... Zman.. I saw where this tonight and wanted to strangle both Mr. and Mrs. Z.

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/george-zimmermanns-um-joke-well-i-have-hoodie-washington-post

I hadn't heard or seen this before, but then I haven't exactly been keeping up with news.

[ When Shellie advises that he "could always lay down or something" to hide from onlookers, Zimmerman said, "Yeah, exactly. Well, I have my hoodie." ]
avatar
Marica

Posts : 565
Join date : 2012-05-14
Age : 70
Location : Iowa
Mood : Bang Head

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Julie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:52 am

We're all gonna get reported.

_________________
This site feels like running free on a playground on a sunny day with the wind in your hair and the birds chirping around you!~~eva

Oh yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of livin' is gone.~~~JM
avatar
Julie
Admin

Posts : 27924
Join date : 2009-10-14
Age : 29
Location : buying balloons for eva's 68th birthday
Mood : Musical

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:56 am

angela_nw wrote:So has everyone actually looked at the bank records?
On Apr 1 GZ had about $370 in his bank checking account.
On April 6 he had between $3000 and $4000 with the input of total $3500 from his parents.
On April 9 he had between $4000 and $5000.
By the end of the day on April 12 he had close to $70,000.
On April 16 he had $86,542.

What time/day did GZ get arrested? Was it the 12th? and what time? It would appear that he himself had direct handling of some large portion of those funds BEFORE he was arrested. Correct me if I am wrong.

I sure would like to see transcripts/audio of phone calls from the moment he went into the jail and started phoning and I hope they are released. From the dialog on the first call that has been released, a lot had occurred by then, and GZ and SZ refer to some discussion they had had earlier on the phone, which I think will clue us in to their initial reaction to the large influx of funds and what their intentions were.

--george's website was created april 8th----launched on april 9th.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11104813-george-zimmerman-takes-to-web-to-raise-money-for-legal-costs-lawyers-confirm?lite
George Zimmerman takes to Web to raise money for legal costs, lawyers confirm---April 9/2012

--george was arrested on april 11th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVeQmxKs00
George Zimmerman Arrested, Charged With 2nd Degree Murder In Travon Martin's Death--April 11/2012

--george's former lawyers quit on april 10th ( "we've lost contact with him".)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpsuFkWZkss
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN LAWYERS QUIT - "He's all alone"--April 10/2012

--omara becomes his attorney on april 11th

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U_EjqOUlWU
Mark O'Mara Press Conference For Charge Against George Zimmerman--April 11/2012

--it's clear that george had access to the paypal acct. pre arrest , and that they had their "code names/words" for the paypal (peterpan) acct. set up before he went to jail.

( unless they were unbelievably stupid enough to work out these names on a previous call that we haven't heard yet..)

--even in jail, it's evident that he's the one calling the shots on moving the $$'s around and is FULLY aware of what's going on w/ the incoming donations , where and when the (just under 10,000) transfers should be made---( they seem to think it can only be done again after 12 hrs have passed, to the point that they are setting the time alarm on their cell phones to do this....maybe they're right? i have no idea..)

--he's fully aware of the (safety deposit) boxes, and where his passport is (surprise omara--you don't have it!)

--omara's motion to keep the other 140 plus jail calls out will be heard on june 29th. omara says they were private and not case related. ( that same argument never worked for baez in the kc case.....so we'll see..)
avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Marica on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:55 am

Didn't know there was anything private when you are in jail!
Everything you do is monitored and recorded in some way.
avatar
Marica

Posts : 565
Join date : 2012-05-14
Age : 70
Location : Iowa
Mood : Bang Head

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:14 am

WeeBonnie wrote:It is up to the judge to decide if he's now deemed a flight risk, or if his circumstances have changed. I know MOM was hammering away at the no change in circumstances since he says he has a lock on GZs finances. But I don't think he can promise to scoop up monies that go to other accounts. He can bill GZ all day long and it doesn't mean GZ isn't sitting in a new pile of donor cash.
I wish I understood the law Cherokee just posted, LOL.
I'm just wondering if they are trying to find a bondsman that would somehow guarantee GZs return. Maybe live with him?
It's just bizarre to me that some odd bondsmans word would matter at all.
Sounds like a dog and pony show to distract us, maybe get sympathy for GZ?




Gizmo711 wrote:

I cannot see any reason why a bondsman would come to court for Zimmerman. Whether Zimmerman is a risk or not, it's up to the bondsman to decide that not the court. The bondsman could charge anywhere up to 10%. Bondsmen are very competitive and there is a lot of money at stake here...any bondsman would take this for the fee alone, but if the bondsman detects that Zimmerman may run he will ask for the entire bond to be secured. Obviously the bondsman that may be coming to court (for what ever reason there may be) feels as though George wont run. But that's the chance that the bondsman takes, the judge cannot say anything about it. I think there may be a connection with O'Mara and this bondsman, maybe O'Mara throws a lot of business his way.


You are correct, it's not up to the bondsman whether Zimmerman will receive a bond or not. But it's not up to the judge to secure the bond, that is what the bondsmans job is. Now, maybe George has enough donations to pay the bond in full, then he wont need the bondsman at all.

So I'm a little confused as to why the bondsman would be coming to court.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:23 am

WeeBonnie wrote:I know he said he hadn't yet used any of the fund for legal expenses. I only saw that said here about the bond.
But MOM has thrown out lots of little tidbits on GZ and his money, so I wouldn't be surprised! Perhaps he'd like to play act as if it shouldn't be used for bond- just so GZ can look right in court (and just plain wrong with Shellie planning to us it for bond).


CherokeeNative wrote:

I heard the same thing, but do not have a link to refer to. Ellejay?

Yes, O'Mara said on the media that the donation money would be used for defense purposes and not for a bond. O'Mara had to say that, because if the judge gives Zimmerman a two million dollar bond then 200,000 can be gone in a minute and then O'Mara would have to go back to "pro bono" status (unless donations are still pouring in) but O'Mara is not going to take taht chance.

I'm sure he is going to try and conbince the judge that Zimmerman is not a flight risk and that he didn't realize what he was doing when he lied to the court.

But I truly do not understand why he would be bringing the bondsman into court, I never heard of that before.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:27 am

CherokeeNative wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:

Same like Zimmerman's father giving 500.00, could this have been to make it appear that the whole fa,ily was scraping up the bond money so that the state wouldn't get wise to all the money that was being donated?

I just find everything to be a lie with this family....I guess that's what happens when one loses all credibility.

Gizmo - I hadn't thought of it that way. I just assumed they were so caught up in their greed that they were taking from the parents too. But you are right - there is a good chance they were doing that simply to throw everyone off about the PayPal funds that were coming in by the boat load. Continue pretending to scrape up money to cover the bond while they hid the donations....

I truly think that it was a show, to make it appear that they were trying to scrape up the money.

Conveniently the borther (who was the one supposedly who was controlling the pay pay account) wasn't at the bond hearing via phone. No one in the room (supposedly) knew of how much was in the account. O'Mara states that the family has to scrape up the money for the bond (and checks show up from the family)....I think the whole family thinks the courts are stupid, including the retired magistrate.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:31 am

ellejay wrote:--looking for something else (usually happens to me..) i was giving a listen again to the closing arguments at the original bond hearing.

--omara mentions "some fund--"that's out there"----says he's aware of it, but has no idea of the $$amount that's in it.

--this is seriously weird TO ME, if he knew of "the fund" (from outside sources) then, as a defense attorney headed to a bond hearing where his client's $$$$ would be in question, he should have asked his client about it.

--if, he about it from george (or family members at the meeting george mentions in the jail call , that clearly his dad, shellie, and others attended WITH omara PRE bond hearing, then he should have asked them-----"how much money are we talking about?(in this fund that i know about) --ALL $$'s have to be noted on the bond app/truthfully disclosed at the hearing.."

--and yet, he ( a seasoned defense attorney w/ years of experience, apparently didn't ask anyone pre-hearing about the $$ amount in the account...????????)

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
--bond hearing---april 20/2012

--@ approx. 2:00

omara---as fr as his financial abilities, unfortunately, this is a family of very short means , umm, you've heard mom & dad testify that they are willing to assist by securing their house, ummm...whatever we can accomplish, we certainly will. I will tell you, umm, that i truly don't know the specifics of some fund that's out there that's not administered by me.

Ummm, I don't know what the amount is, umm but when we look to the assets and the financial picture, picture of my client, we know 1). Unfortunatelty based on these circumstances, h will not be able to work in the public in the near future, so he cannot support himself , he has a wife who is not working presently because she is in school. Umm I'm asking you to consider a reasonable bond in the amount of $15,000.00 that will secure his appearance and there are other conditions.

--(goes on to ask that he be allowed to reside out of state, talks about the GPS, the fact that he has surrendered his one and only passport etc...)

--i still don't trust that omara was blindsided by george days later over the admission of this money.

--ETA--(my keyboard has been invaded by something weird, ignore the fact that there are missing letters non stop...)






I'm with you...I also found it odd when O'Mara asked Shellie if the brother was there and she said no and then O'Mara asked her if he can be reached and Shellie said "yes", then O'Mara comes back with "so he's not there right now"? Why didn't he say "where can he be reached right now"? Instead he flew right over her last answer.

I don't think that O'Mara was so innocent of all this. Like you say, any attorney would have asked this before the hearing and would have known the answer.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:34 am

ellejay wrote:
Julie wrote:snipped:



LOL, that happened to me not too long ago. So I turned my keyboard upside down and shook it, several times, and thanks to my kids, all these eraser shavings and crumbs came falling out. Now it works fine. Very Happy

--ahhhh..thanks julie. i took your advice and shook it outside, so i'm not sure what was lodged in there.

( i must say i'm seriously disgusted as i clean between the keys w/ a Qtip---that compressed air is useless! it clearly doesn't handle a splash of occasional wine...)

--and to be on topic, based on the jail calls, george is perhaps dreaming again of buying shellie something fantastic---"like a scarf" ( which is code for.....?? or, maybe it was, a scarf.) or tomorrow is once again shower day ( apparently not a daily occurence, (ugh)--and he's looking fwd to that...)

I think at one point he mentioned a four or five bedroom house to rent, maybe he was talking about buying one.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by justanopinion on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:18 am

Gizmo711 wrote:
ellejay wrote:--looking for something else (usually happens to me..) i was giving a listen again to the closing arguments at the original bond hearing.

--omara mentions "some fund--"that's out there"----says he's aware of it, but has no idea of the $$amount that's in it.

--this is seriously weird TO ME, if he knew of "the fund" (from outside sources) then, as a defense attorney headed to a bond hearing where his client's $$$$ would be in question, he should have asked his client about it.

--if, he about it from george (or family members at the meeting george mentions in the jail call , that clearly his dad, shellie, and others attended WITH omara PRE bond hearing, then he should have asked them-----"how much money are we talking about?(in this fund that i know about) --ALL $$'s have to be noted on the bond app/truthfully disclosed at the hearing.."

--and yet, he ( a seasoned defense attorney w/ years of experience, apparently didn't ask anyone pre-hearing about the $$ amount in the account...????????)

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
--bond hearing---april 20/2012

--@ approx. 2:00

omara---as fr as his financial abilities, unfortunately, this is a family of very short means , umm, you've heard mom & dad testify that they are willing to assist by securing their house, ummm...whatever we can accomplish, we certainly will. I will tell you, umm, that i truly don't know the specifics of some fund that's out there that's not administered by me.

Ummm, I don't know what the amount is, umm but when we look to the assets and the financial picture, picture of my client, we know 1). Unfortunatelty based on these circumstances, h will not be able to work in the public in the near future, so he cannot support himself , he has a wife who is not working presently because she is in school. Umm I'm asking you to consider a reasonable bond in the amount of $15,000.00 that will secure his appearance and there are other conditions.

--(goes on to ask that he be allowed to reside out of state, talks about the GPS, the fact that he has surrendered his one and only passport etc...)

--i still don't trust that omara was blindsided by george days later over the admission of this money.

--ETA--(my keyboard has been invaded by something weird, ignore the fact that there are missing letters non stop...)






I'm with you...I also found it odd when O'Mara asked Shellie if the brother was there and she said no and then O'Mara asked her if he can be reached and Shellie said "yes", then O'Mara comes back with "so he's not there right now"? Why didn't he say "where can he be reached right now"? Instead he flew right over her last answer.

I don't think that O'Mara was so innocent of all this. Like you say, any attorney would have asked this before the hearing and would have known the answer.


Ellejay nice catch!! I for one sometimes miss the obvious looking for the innuendo! I think that you are very correct MOM was being cagey in case the fund came out... yes I mentioned it but at the time no one was certain of the dollar amount that was there; no one expected that the fund would have that much contributed!! In fairness, I would not have thought even groups like NRA, NBP etc.. would fund this case with the fact that GZ is problematic, and I do not believe that these are all private donations. The jail tapes are really an insight as to how GZ thinks and he is so smarmy! Gizmo711 I agree With regards to the brother it seems like there was "advice" that he not be present and be reachable but not easily. Any lawyer/liar would definitely not ask a question in court where he was not aware of the answer!

my opinions only and may or maynot be accurate Laughing


Last edited by justanopinion on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misquoted and needed to correct!)
avatar
justanopinion

Posts : 2342
Join date : 2011-11-18
Location : North of the Equator; South of the Pole
Mood : Angry

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:03 am

I think if we go back through the older threads on this case, you will find that we were all sceptical of MOM and the fact that GZ's brother was conveniently not available with the rest of the family for the bond hearing. I still believe that MOM arranged for GZ's brother to not be present and although he may not have fully vetted the PayPal account, he was aware of it to the extent that he knew he was dancing on thin ice at the bail hearing. But, I believe MOM thought this Judge was going to look at it all in a lighter sense than he did - he clearly pooh-poohed the fact that they had made misrepresentations at the bond hearing in the media by saying the GZ may get his hand slapped. He is now trying the "they were afraid and untrusting of LE and the Court" excuse in the media. I think if MOM goes before the Judge and tries that excuse when you take into the extent of GZ's and Shellie's scamming of the funds - and what also appears to be discussions of "going over" - the Judge is going to come down even harder at this upcoming hearing.

I posted Rule 3.131(i) up thread relating to the bondsman - and I think they are being called as witnesses simply to state to the Judge that they are ready to issue a bond on behalf of the Defendant despite the jail conversations. This is going to be "a show" by MOM where he will get out his subliminal pleas for more donations and a smoke screen to convince the Judge to release "poor, afraid, and misunderstood" GZ. Hopefully, the Judge will not go for it.

ETA: In fact, I hope that BDLR has his game plan ready and points out all of the lies that GZ has told since the night he shot and killed Trayvon - because it goes to the very heart of this case - GZ's credibility to tell the truth of what actually happened that night.
avatar
CherokeeNative

Posts : 813
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : PNW
Mood : Feeling beat up

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Porky on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:23 am

CherokeeNative wrote:I think if we go back through the older threads on this case, you will find that we were all sceptical of MOM and the fact that GZ's brother was conveniently not available with the rest of the family for the bond hearing. I still believe that MOM arranged for GZ's brother to not be present and although he may not have fully vetted the PayPal account, he was aware of it to the extent that he knew he was dancing on thin ice at the bail hearing. But, I believe MOM thought this Judge was going to look at it all in a lighter sense than he did - he clearly pooh-poohed the fact that they had made misrepresentations at the bond hearing in the media by saying the GZ may get his hand slapped. He is now trying the "they were afraid and untrusting of LE and the Court" excuse in the media. I think if MOM goes before the Judge and tries that excuse when you take into the extent of GZ's and Shellie's scamming of the funds - and what also appears to be discussions of "going over" - the Judge is going to come down even harder at this upcoming hearing.

I posted Rule 3.131(i) up thread relating to the bondsman - and I think they are being called as witnesses simply to state to the Judge that they are ready to issue a bond on behalf of the Defendant despite the jail conversations. This is going to be "a show" by MOM where he will get out his subliminal pleas for more donations and a smoke screen to convince the Judge to release "poor, afraid, and misunderstood" GZ. Hopefully, the Judge will not go for it.

ETA: In fact, I hope that BDLR has his game plan ready and points out all of the lies that GZ has told since the night he shot and killed Trayvon - because it goes to the very heart of this case - GZ's credibility to tell the truth of what actually happened that night.

The instruction to not have the brother in court also could have come from the elder Zimmerman. This guy was a Magistrate and has officiated many a bond case. Who better would know?

Porky

Posts : 270
Join date : 2012-05-18

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:34 am

Porky wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:I think if we go back through the older threads on this case, you will find that we were all sceptical of MOM and the fact that GZ's brother was conveniently not available with the rest of the family for the bond hearing. I still believe that MOM arranged for GZ's brother to not be present and although he may not have fully vetted the PayPal account, he was aware of it to the extent that he knew he was dancing on thin ice at the bail hearing. But, I believe MOM thought this Judge was going to look at it all in a lighter sense than he did - he clearly pooh-poohed the fact that they had made misrepresentations at the bond hearing in the media by saying the GZ may get his hand slapped. He is now trying the "they were afraid and untrusting of LE and the Court" excuse in the media. I think if MOM goes before the Judge and tries that excuse when you take into the extent of GZ's and Shellie's scamming of the funds - and what also appears to be discussions of "going over" - the Judge is going to come down even harder at this upcoming hearing.

I posted Rule 3.131(i) up thread relating to the bondsman - and I think they are being called as witnesses simply to state to the Judge that they are ready to issue a bond on behalf of the Defendant despite the jail conversations. This is going to be "a show" by MOM where he will get out his subliminal pleas for more donations and a smoke screen to convince the Judge to release "poor, afraid, and misunderstood" GZ. Hopefully, the Judge will not go for it.

ETA: In fact, I hope that BDLR has his game plan ready and points out all of the lies that GZ has told since the night he shot and killed Trayvon - because it goes to the very heart of this case - GZ's credibility to tell the truth of what actually happened that night.

The instruction to not have the brother in court also could have come from the elder Zimmerman. This guy was a Magistrate and has officiated many a bond case. Who better would know?

Bingo Porky !! But I still find it odd that an attorney with 25+ years experience in dealing with criminal defendants just blew off vetting GZ's financial situation. As I understand it, the first thing a good defense attorney does when preparing to seek bail is ask to see the defendant's bank statements, etc. Such an oversight, if you ask me, was mighty convenient - but then again - maybe MOM was so star struck by the mere high profile of the case that he forgot his legal responsibilities to the Court. Think?
avatar
CherokeeNative

Posts : 813
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : PNW
Mood : Feeling beat up

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:35 am

I'm convinced GZ used Ken to lie to MOM about the funds available. And anything else he wanted to lie about.
Same as he got the "homies" to lie about the mess with his sisters ex and now Shellie to lie to the court. Somewhere I recall MOM saying he believed it was a couple or few K. And Shell pleaded ignorance. MOM was too much of a lawyer to demand an exact answer from a client like GZ.

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:40 am

Did we figure out who "Ken" is?
avatar
CherokeeNative

Posts : 813
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : PNW
Mood : Feeling beat up

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:47 am

Is his brothers wife a blonde? I think it has to be the brother.
He's not mentioned in the calls otherwise, right? That's a glaring omission.
Also I was guessing the one "doing so well listening " was Taffe, who they asked to shut up. Ha.
I love how Camp Zim says there was no code. It's a crappy one, but it is a code.
CherokeeNative wrote:Did we figure out who "Ken" is?

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 am

One last observation before I head out for work. Did anyone else get the impression from reading the transcript of GZ's and Shellie's jailhouse convos that Shellie has a problem remembering things or some sort of learning disability? The way GZ kept telling her to be sure to put reminders on her phone, and to be sure to pick something she could remember, etc. just gave me that impression.
avatar
CherokeeNative

Posts : 813
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : PNW
Mood : Feeling beat up

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Chickenbutt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:07 am

I tell my son all the time to write stuff down as to not forget it. He does not have any......well wait, OK never mind..... Very Happy
Seriously, some people just forget everything, you should know that! Laughing
avatar
Chickenbutt

Posts : 1509
Join date : 2012-05-11

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by CherokeeNative on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:19 am

Chickenbutt wrote:I tell my son all the time to write stuff down as to not forget it. He does not have any......well wait, OK never mind..... Very Happy
Seriously, some people just forget everything, you should know that! Laughing

Yes, I have terrible short term memory problems, but I am old and take a ton of meds...she's young and I just found it striking that GZ was constantly reminding her to pick something she could remember and to be sure to write it down, etc. I am not picking on her for that - mind you - it is just something that stood out to me when reading the transcript. Very Happy
avatar
CherokeeNative

Posts : 813
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : PNW
Mood : Feeling beat up

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Chickenbutt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:25 am

Yeah, just pickin on ya......It is odd, but I can actually understand it. This is VERY important to GZ and he doesn't want anything to go wrong.
avatar
Chickenbutt

Posts : 1509
Join date : 2012-05-11

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by snowbird on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:27 am

CherokeeNative wrote:One last observation before I head out for work. Did anyone else get the impression from reading the transcript of GZ's and Shellie's jailhouse convos that Shellie has a problem remembering things or some sort of learning disability? The way GZ kept telling her to be sure to put reminders on her phone, and to be sure to pick something she could remember, etc. just gave me that impression.
I took it more as George being a controlling person and he doesn't think anybody can do a job but him. I thought it was kind of demeaning the way he spoke to her like he know she would screw the money matter. She could not be that incompetent if she was in nursing school that she would have to write down everything.
Anyway I took him as being controlling and nobody is as good as good old George. After all he the man he knows a criminal by looking at them and he knows how to more money around. He knows how to hide money form the IRS.
avatar
snowbird

Posts : 782
Join date : 2012-05-14
Location : louisiana
Mood : Happy

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by alabama52 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:01 am

George had control over his website/paypal up until he was arrested. It was, at that point, that he received help. I suppose that he thought Shellie was too dumb to do it. For some reason, I do not believe that George's brother took over. I've read more than once that George & his brother , who still lives in VA?) were not close & had not seen each other in a couple of years, but who knows? I have to admit that it was odd that he was not asked to speak during the original bond hearing.

alabama52

Posts : 214
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by snowbird on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:12 am

alabama52 wrote:George had control over his website/paypal up until he was arrested. It was, at that point, that he received help. I suppose that he thought Shellie was too dumb to do it. For some reason, I do not believe that George's brother took over. I've read more than once that George & his brother , who still lives in VA?) were not close & had not seen each other in a couple of years, but who knows? I have to admit that it was odd that he was not asked to speak during the original bond hearing.
I just think he is a control freak.
He didn't trust the police to do their job so he followed Martin.
He didn't like the other web site that he friend and his other attorney set up because he wasn't get any of the money, so he open is own.
He didn't trust his wife to play hide the money, that why he kept reminding her to write things down.
I think George would like to make her fell dumb, so he can seem so smart.
I would bet that George set up the code talk, peter pan, $10 ect, because he really thought he could out smart the police and not get caught. Laughing
avatar
snowbird

Posts : 782
Join date : 2012-05-14
Location : louisiana
Mood : Happy

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:15 am

Is his brothers wife a blonde? I think it has to be the brother.
He's not mentioned in the calls otherwise, right? That's a glaring omission.
Also I was guessing the one "doing so well listening " was Taffe, who they asked to shut up. Ha.
I love how Camp Zim says there was no code. It's a crappy one, but it is a code.
CherokeeNative wrote:Did we figure out who "Ken" is?

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by alabama52 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:18 am

Ya know, George had to have discussed with his wife, right before he went to jail that first time, that they would have to speak in code about the money & such. They had it all worked out. Boy, they are a pair, aren't they?

alabama52

Posts : 214
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:25 am

I think that's why his supporters are so adamant there was. I code. But then again, many are still saying he didn't know he could use it as bond.
But yeah, it shows conspiracy to commit something. And GZ pulled the strings and the best they can say now is that they were scared or stupid. And it believeable but they are leaving out greedy and theiving.

alabama52 wrote:Ya know, George had to have discussed with his wife, right before he went to jail that first time, that they would have to speak in code about the money & such. They had it all worked out. Boy, they are a pair, aren't they?

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:06 am

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/06/george-zimmerman-will-he-get-bond.html
George Zimmerman: Will he get bond?

--snipped--

On WOFL-Channel 35, attorney Bob Fisher predicted that a higher bond would be set for Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

“This issue is only is he going to make his appearances, is there any danger to the community?” Fisher told anchor Sonni Abatta. “He hasn’t demonstrated there is any danger and he’s obviously indicated that he’s going to surrender himself when required … I think the judge will set a bond. I just think it will be a higher bond.”

WFTV-Channel 9 Bill Sheaffer described George Zimmerman as the mastermind behind the plot to transfer and hide money from the court, Daralene Jones reported.

“The court’s going to have to take that into consideration as to whether or not to set a bond in this case,” Sheaffer said.

Mark O’Mara, attorney for George Zimmerman, said it was all a misunderstanding and that the couple had never handled that amount of money.

WKMG anchor Lauren Rowe observed that the Zimmermans “seemed to be pretty savvy” in the calls.
avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:17 am


http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120620george_zimmermans_wife_had_57000_in_account_records_show/srvc=home&position=recent
George Zimmerman’s wife had $57,000 in account, records show

--snipped--

It’s not clear how much money the couple has now. Several weeks ago, defense attorney Mark O’Mara reported that a legal defense fund, started with $120,000 that the Zimmermans surrendered to him, had raised a total of $220,000 and was netting about $1,000 a day in contributions.

The fund is now being administered by a certified public accountant, who O’Mara said would use the money for George Zimmerman’s legal defense and living expenses.

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey on Monday released a limited number of the couple’s financial records, portions of his-and-hers credit union accounts.

They show that a few days after Zimmerman set up a website, inviting people to make credit card donations to him via PayPal, he began to transfer PayPal money to his own credit union account.

But he was arrested and jailed April 11, cutting off his direct access to the money. A series of recorded jail phone calls, released by the special prosecutor Monday, reveal that he coached his wife on how to get access to it and gave very specific instructions on what she should do with it.
avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Marica on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:16 pm

Chickenbutt wrote:Yeah, just pickin on ya......It is odd, but I can actually understand it. This is VERY important to GZ and he doesn't want anything to go wrong.

Seems like he is a tad too late with this line of thinking.

Also wanted to add... Damn.. what was I just thinking... (not trying to be cute. Flat out forgot)... thinking... Oh.. Yeah.. They don't trust the judicial system? How can this be? Daddy was part of the system. Why on GOD's wonderful green earth would they not have trust in the system that provided their lively hood ?

Re: Zman's comments to Shellie .. constant reminders, and telling her to pick something she won't forget. While Shellie may have memory problems, I wonder
if this isn't more of George's bulling/controlling personality.
avatar
Marica

Posts : 565
Join date : 2012-05-14
Age : 70
Location : Iowa
Mood : Bang Head

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:30 pm

great observation!
his Dad is part of the system- and what is worse HE wanted to be part of the system. Seems like he assumes everyone is as dangerous and dishonest as he has been shown to be. He backstabbed the cops, lied to them repeatedly... screwed over his friends and wife putting them in HUGE trouble and is apparently blaming everyone else for his bad behavior. Time to man up, GZ.


Marica wrote:
Seems like he is a tad too late with this line of thinking.

Also wanted to add... Damn.. what was I just thinking... (not trying to be cute. Flat out forgot)... thinking... Oh.. Yeah.. They don't trust the judicial system? How can this be? Daddy was part of the system. Why on GOD's wonderful green earth would they not have trust in the system that provided their lively hood ?

Re: Zman's comments to Shellie .. constant reminders, and telling her to pick something she won't forget. While Shellie may have memory problems, I wonder
if this isn't more of George's bulling/controlling personality.

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:38 pm

I think the judge should look at GZs changes In circumstances.
Not only is his legal fund growing- there are hundreds of supporters on the web now wanting to go around it and donate directly to GZ. These same people are saying he should or they understand why he would run. If he's going to benefit so greatly from the Internet then it behooves the court to look hard at the totality of the benefit.
It's not like GZ is going to show him the pile of checks and gift cards that have to be coming his way non stop. From what I saw, a great many of his supporters don't want their donations taxed. They will find a way.


Last edited by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by alabama52 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:39 pm

George's mother worked for the courts, also.

alabama52

Posts : 214
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by alabama52 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 pm

It makes me ill to know that people are wanting to donate to George, especially after hearing the jail house tapes, where Shellie tells George that he will be living real well!
But then, these same folks would probably keep sending money even if the prosecutors had a video showing George chasing & gunning down Trayvon. George is their hero!

alabama52

Posts : 214
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:06 pm

alabama52 wrote:It makes me ill to know that people are wanting to donate to George, especially after hearing the jail house tapes, where Shellie tells George that he will be living real well!
But then, these same folks would probably keep sending money even if the prosecutors had a video showing George chasing & gunning down Trayvon. George is their hero!

That's the sad part. The mind set of some people will never cease to amaze me. There are so many things out here that donations are needed for and they put their money to a person who gunned down a young man walking to the store.

It just sickens me. barf

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:11 pm

I hope George knows that this case doesn't look good for him. If he is convicted he can spend up to 30 years in prison. By the time he gets out, his money will be depleted by a lawyer and a wife taht will probably move on with her life. He will not be able to get 1000.00 a week to spend on snacks and underwear (although he will probably need the underwear).

Both Shellie and George couldn't care less about the life that was taken. Zimmermans apology to the family was BS in the first degree, it was all self serving.

I bet George is betting on a jury from Pineles County. I sure hope these jurors are picked better.

But either way, that money will be long gone by the time this case goes to trial.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:17 pm

WeeBonnie wrote:I think that's why his supporters are so adamant there was. I code. But then again, many are still saying he didn't know he could use it as bond.
But yeah, it shows conspiracy to commit something. And GZ pulled the strings and the best they can say now is that they were scared or stupid. And it believeable but they are leaving out greedy and theiving.

alabama52 wrote:Ya know, George had to have discussed with his wife, right before he went to jail that first time, that they would have to speak in code about the money & such. They had it all worked out. Boy, they are a pair, aren't they?

Goes to show the type of supporters he has. How can anyone think they could pay off all their bills but not use the money for bond. Shellie even says to George "that's what it's for". George even gives her instructions on how to pay the bond, if it's 50,000 he told her to pay the whole thing, if it was more she should give 5,000.00.....I guess he thought he was going to get out on a 50,000 dollar bond? wishful thinking.... Wait until his next bond hearing , when the money isn't available to make bond, we may just see a crying Georgie.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:19 pm

First of all, ignorance is not accepted as a defense on any issue in a court of law. So it wont wash. It may be used as an excuse because what else can the lawyer say, but it wont be accepted as a reason for what he did.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Chickenbutt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:21 pm

I wonder if the judge can appoint a "special master" to oversee the accounts? Not necessarily to administer the account, but to just keep an eye on what is coming into and going out of that account.
avatar
Chickenbutt

Posts : 1509
Join date : 2012-05-11

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:41 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:One last observation before I head out for work. Did anyone else get the impression from reading the transcript of GZ's and Shellie's jailhouse convos that Shellie has a problem remembering things or some sort of learning disability? The way GZ kept telling her to be sure to put reminders on her phone, and to be sure to pick something she could remember, etc. just gave me that impression.

--that was my initial thought (man this woman is dense!!)i had to wonder how on earth she could handle nursing school w/ that memory of hers.

--but i also think that george was so paranoid (as usual--IMO) about the p/w getting changed that he wanted to make SURE that she wrote it down, picked easy answers to the security questions etc......he didn't have to drill it into her when they were talking about matters that didn't have to do w/ the paypal (peterpan) or $$$$'s.
avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:50 pm

Chickenbutt wrote:I wonder if the judge can appoint a "special master" to oversee the accounts? Not necessarily to administer the account, but to just keep an eye on what is coming into and going out of that account.

I think the court can put a hold on money but I don't think it will be allowed to check on his accounts. If George had committed a crime that defrauded people out of money, than the judge would be able to put a lean on all his assets. But I truly doubt that the judge can look into how much money Zimmerman has collected.

However, if the defense attempts to say george is indigent, then the judge may be able to do something...I think anyway....

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by ellejay on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:56 pm

Chickenbutt wrote:I wonder if the judge can appoint a "special master" to oversee the accounts? Not necessarily to administer the account, but to just keep an eye on what is coming into and going out of that account.

--i don't know that a judge would have any say/ anything to do w/ a website set up by the defense?

--omara did already put a 3rd party in place of the admin of the account so everything there would be on the up and up, w/ neither he nor george having direct access to any of the $$$'s.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php?start=12
How Is the Money Managed?

The fund itself is managed by a third-party administrator -- a former IRS agent who practiced many years as a CPA and has extensive experience as Chapter 7 bankruptcy fund trustee. Neither George Zimmerman or Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara have direct access to the fund.



avatar
ellejay

Posts : 843
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Chickenbutt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:06 pm

GZ may not have access to the money, but he almost certainly has a say in how it is spent. I realize the court has no say in how the money is spent etc, but a disinterested fourth (?) party just to see what's going on with it. I may be crazy.
avatar
Chickenbutt

Posts : 1509
Join date : 2012-05-11

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by WeeBonnie on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:39 pm

I think others have pointed out that GZ can break this trust at any time.
It might cause MOM to bail on him, but for all the bells and whistles the money still does belong to GZ. He's only agreed to oversight, but that could certainly change.


ellejay wrote:
Chickenbutt wrote:I wonder if the judge can appoint a "special master" to oversee the accounts? Not necessarily to administer the account, but to just keep an eye on what is coming into and going out of that account.

--i don't know that a judge would have any say/ anything to do w/ a website set up by the defense?

--omara did already put a 3rd party in place of the admin of the account so everything there would be on the up and up, w/ neither he nor george having direct access to any of the $$$'s.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php?start=12
How Is the Money Managed?

The fund itself is managed by a third-party administrator -- a former IRS agent who practiced many years as a CPA and has extensive experience as Chapter 7 bankruptcy fund trustee. Neither George Zimmerman or Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara have direct access to the fund.




WeeBonnie

Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-05-24

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:47 pm

WeeBonnie wrote:I think others have pointed out that GZ can break this trust at any time.
It might cause MOM to bail on him, but for all the bells and whistles the money still does belong to GZ. He's only agreed to oversight, but that could certainly change.


ellejay wrote:

--i don't know that a judge would have any say/ anything to do w/ a website set up by the defense?

--omara did already put a 3rd party in place of the admin of the account so everything there would be on the up and up, w/ neither he nor george having direct access to any of the $$$'s.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php?start=12
How Is the Money Managed?

The fund itself is managed by a third-party administrator -- a former IRS agent who practiced many years as a CPA and has extensive experience as Chapter 7 bankruptcy fund trustee. Neither George Zimmerman or Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara have direct access to the fund.




I don't think O'Mara is that stupid, I'm more than sure that he had Zimmerman sign a retainer and an hourly rate for his services. The retainer is non refundable with most attornies and I'm, again, more than sure that O'Mara had Zimmerman sign to such. That money will be eaten up as fast as it comes in. O'Mara will give him and Shellie X amount for living expenses and it will most likely be a modest amount, not extravegant.....

I don't know of too many lawyers that wouldn't retain most of that money for cost and fees. O'Mara knows that if he has to go back in front of Judge Lester and put in for money it's not going to look to good. I remember that Baez had to show the judge where that 200,000 went before Perry would approve any funds to be given to the defense. In this case where O'Mara is already claiming that 1000.00 dollars is coming in daily, it wont be easy to ask for money from the state for anything..

This must be killing both Shellie and George..because now Shellie has to also kick out money for a lawyer.

Gizmo711

Posts : 804
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #3

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 18 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum