Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by ellejay on Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:57 pm


http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/07/13/zimmerman-not-racist-fbi-report-states/
Zimmerman Not a Racist, FBI Report Says


A report released by the FBI has reignited the debate over whether George Zimmerman was racially motivated the night he killed Trayvon Martin.

Detective Chris Serino described Zimmerman as overzealous and as having a "little hero complex" but not as a racist, according to the FBI report.

--more@link--


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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by ecossie possie on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Since George readly admitts to shooting Trayvon the gun powder residue wich is different to lead fragments .They may have thought it unimportant to keep his hands pristine.,Ive seen suspects with there hands placed in plastic bags to preserve evidence ...............
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by CherokeeNative on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:50 pm

If this has been discussed, sorry, as I am playing catch up - but did everyone notice that he tells his friend whom he stayed with after the shooting and he tells his coworkers that he got out of his car to locate Trayvon and was looking for Trayvon when Trayvon attacked him?
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by snowbird on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:59 pm

ecossie possie wrote:Since George readly admitts to shooting Trayvon the gun powder residue wich is different to lead fragments .They may have thought it unimportant to keep his hands pristine.,Ive seen suspects with there hands placed in plastic bags to preserve evidence ...............
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by snowbird on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:01 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:If this has been discussed, sorry, as I am playing catch up - but did everyone notice that he tells his friend whom he stayed with after the shooting and he tells his coworkers that he got out of his car to locate Trayvon and was looking for Trayvon when Trayvon attacked him?
I did notice that however he told police he wasn't following Martin but going in the same direction. Very Happy Of course he also said that he got out of the car to find the street because he could not remember 3 street names.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by CherokeeNative on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:02 pm

snowbird wrote:
ecossie possie wrote:Since George readly admitts to shooting Trayvon the gun powder residue wich is different to lead fragments .They may have thought it unimportant to keep his hands pristine.,Ive seen suspects with there hands placed in plastic bags to preserve evidence ...............
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.

Snowbird - I don't recall, but was GZ's shirt under the jacket a short sleeve or long sleeve? Because if he had his jacket off during the altercation, and it was short sleeved, then he may have washed the gun residue off his arms as well.

I still think it is very telling that GZ changed his story about why he got out of his truck and what he was doing when Trayvon supposedly attacked him. According to his buddy and his coworkers he relayed that he was looking for Trayvon - not looking for an address or street sign. Major boner there GZ.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by snowbird on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:11 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
snowbird wrote:
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.

Snowbird - I don't recall, but was GZ's shirt under the jacket a short sleeve or long sleeve? Because if he had his jacket off during the altercation, and it was short sleeved, then he may have washed the gun residue off his arms as well.

I still think it is very telling that GZ changed his story about why he got out of his truck and what he was doing when Trayvon supposedly attacked him. According to his buddy and his coworkers he relayed that he was looking for Trayvon - not looking for an address or street sign. Major boner there GZ.
I had to look it up, it says it was a long sleeve shirt.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by WeeBonnie on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:29 pm

Interesting he says he slapped his hand away here- id always thought he said he caught it between his arm and ribcage? And this is one (rare)point where I thought he'd always been consistent.
But like everything else, GZ rembered it two different ways.
This is a huge problem because it goes to the heart of SYG and self defense.
If he cannot consistently relay a viable story...


ellejay wrote:--page 78

--mark tells it as told to him by george:

--"martin and zimmerman struggled which resulted in martin gaining a position on top of zimmerman, sitting on zimmerman in the "mounted" position, martin's butt on zimmerman's stomach w/ martin's knees on the ground next to zimmerman's ribs."

--(like this george?)..b/c it makes zero sense that you're going to be able to get at your "firearm"...



--"martin then told zimmerman to "shut the fu*k up" and martin placed one of his hands over zimmerman's nose and one over z's mouth. martin then observed or felt the handgun on z's side, took his other hand away from z's nose and reached for the gun stating "you're gonna die now motherfuc*er". "

--"zimmerman slapped martin's hand away from the handgun, pulled the handgun, rotated the weapon, and fired one round."

--george shows how he---george-the-contortionist-- did manage to get out his gun...

...hmmm...i don't believe you george.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by ellejay on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:40 pm

http://twitter.com/roblesherald

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald

There's been a motion disqualify Judge Lester

Frances Robles‏@RoblesHerald

Judge orders release of witness 9 statement

ETA--------i'll actually put this over in the general discussion.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Labadorable on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:42 pm

The "hole" that allowing GZ to possibly taint evidence is that is beginning of reasonable doubt (re: GSR washing of hands possibility in boy's room by GZ). That if the SPD were so slobby to allow this obvious breach in the collection of evidence - what else did they screw up in the evidence area?

And for me another angle is -->some of the SPD might have already decided the case and then they mishandled GZ's interview process and evidence collection - b/c in their mind this was SYG.

Either way -->it's step one in reasonable doubt.

So for me ... that tells me "hopefully" Corey has some other sound uncompromised evidence (maybe on Trayvon's body) that supports M2.

snowbird wrote:
ecossie possie wrote:Since George readly admitts to shooting Trayvon the gun powder residue wich is different to lead fragments .They may have thought it unimportant to keep his hands pristine.,Ive seen suspects with there hands placed in plastic bags to preserve evidence ...............
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by MDgirl on Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:53 pm

New here, just wanted to Thank Porky for helping me.
It is interesting that the LE officer did not follow Zimmerman in to restroom to see if he washed his hands. IMO his hands would be important evidence. I thought it normal to test hands after firing a weapon during a investigation. Or is that just crime show stuff?

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by WeeBonnie on Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:59 pm

There's some part of SYG that I think inhibits their ability to do a normal investigation or arrest. I am not clear on the details but from what I read it actually gives your average citizen more protection- or benefit of the doubt than a policeman who has shot a suspect.
It helps people avoid both arrests and trials and puts fear into PDs that they will be sued for false arrest. The NRA found a way to help their constituents avoid the normal judicial process starting immediately after the crime occured.
It's unconstitutional- special rights for trigger happy people.



Labadorable wrote:The "hole" that allowing GZ to possibly taint evidence is that is beginning of reasonable doubt (re: GSR washing of hands possibility in boy's room by GZ). That if the SPD were so slobby to allow this obvious breach in the collection of evidence - what else did they screw up in the evidence area?

And for me another angle is -->some of the SPD might have already decided the case and then they mishandled GZ's interview process and evidence collection - b/c in their mind this was SYG.

Either way -->it's step one in reasonable doubt.

So for me ... that tells me "hopefully" Corey has some other sound uncompromised evidence (maybe on Trayvon's body) that supports M2.

snowbird wrote:
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Requiem on Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:47 pm

O'marah has filed a motion for Judge Lester to be removed from the case.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2894366/judge-orders-release-of-witness.html#moreb

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by WeeBonnie on Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:51 pm

I think he felt he had to do something gutsy to jump start the stalled donations.
It'll be interesting to see the extent to which he's willing to appease those idiots.


Requiem wrote:O'marah has filed a motion for Judge Lester to be removed from the case.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2894366/judge-orders-release-of-witness.html#moreb

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Freckles on Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:04 pm

Whether GZ is a racist or not is not my concern. Admittedly, it may go for probable cause.But we ALREADY know GZ killed Trayvon .We know GZ intentionally looked for, followed, hunted Trayyvon down prior to killing him.There is enough there to convict him, IMO.

The newest news release I just heard on the radio, GZ refers in a 911 call to possible unknowns in the area and says, "THEY typically RUN AWAY." IMO, GZ does profile but he profiles teens (and possibly others) who he does not know. The profiling is first by age, second by residence, and last by race.



Last edited by Freckles on Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Rectifying the lines.)
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Freckles on Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:06 pm

ecossie possie wrote:Since George readly admitts to shooting Trayvon the gun powder residue wich is different to lead fragments .They may have thought it unimportant to keep his hands pristine.,Ive seen suspects with there hands placed in plastic bags to preserve evidence ...............
IMO, the PD were more lax due to the SYG laws.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by serenaz1 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:44 am

WeeBonnie wrote:There's some part of SYG that I think inhibits their ability to do a normal investigation or arrest. I am not clear on the details but from what I read it actually gives your average citizen more protection- or benefit of the doubt than a policeman who has shot a suspect.
It helps people avoid both arrests and trials and puts fear into PDs that they will be sued for false arrest. The NRA found a way to help their constituents avoid the normal judicial process starting immediately after the crime occured.
It's unconstitutional- special rights for trigger happy people.

I think this part of the SYG/self-defense laws need to be changed. Unless it's where someone entered your home & assaulted you, then it needs to be investigated like any other case until it's PROVEN that it was self-defense. So evidence needs to be collected properly, all that kind of crap. It's so frustrating that someone can claim SD and not have it investigated to confirm what happened.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Gizmo711 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:07 am

CherokeeNative wrote:
snowbird wrote:
True about hands however this is still an investigation and if it is going to court and defense attack the evidence you would still think that they would follow procedures. I was also wondering about the gun shot residue not found on clothing would the shot was close range. It states no residue found on his clothes that is why I questioned if it would be on his clothes if he shot Martin at close range or contact shooting.

Snowbird - I don't recall, but was GZ's shirt under the jacket a short sleeve or long sleeve? Because if he had his jacket off during the altercation, and it was short sleeved, then he may have washed the gun residue off his arms as well.

I still think it is very telling that GZ changed his story about why he got out of his truck and what he was doing when Trayvon supposedly attacked him. According to his buddy and his coworkers he relayed that he was looking for Trayvon - not looking for an address or street sign. Major boner there GZ.

He as well admitted to the 911 operator that he was following Trayvon. Zimmerman is going to have a hard time convincing a jury that he wasn't chasing Trayvon.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Gizmo711 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:21 am

serenaz1 wrote:
WeeBonnie wrote:There's some part of SYG that I think inhibits their ability to do a normal investigation or arrest. I am not clear on the details but from what I read it actually gives your average citizen more protection- or benefit of the doubt than a policeman who has shot a suspect.
It helps people avoid both arrests and trials and puts fear into PDs that they will be sued for false arrest. The NRA found a way to help their constituents avoid the normal judicial process starting immediately after the crime occured.
It's unconstitutional- special rights for trigger happy people.

I think this part of the SYG/self-defense laws need to be changed. Unless it's where someone entered your home & assaulted you, then it needs to be investigated like any other case until it's PROVEN that it was self-defense. So evidence needs to be collected properly, all that kind of crap. It's so frustrating that someone can claim SD and not have it investigated to confirm what happened.


Actually there is supposed to be an investigation. The SPD didn't conduct one, they took Zimmermans account as to what happened. The SYG law is not intended for someone to shoot at will, murder someone and then say that it was SYG. Actually SYG will not come into play in this case. Zimmerman persued his victim (911 tapes). Zimmerman started the altercation (which ever way one looks at it, even if Trayvon threw the first punch). If Zimmerman wants to play the SYG law, then Trayvon had as much right to be standing his ground against a 9mm gun being pointed at him for no reason. Zimmerman has given too many accounts of what took place, he will be ripped to threads on that stand and he has to take the stand.

I'm sure that one of the reason that O'Mara wanted Zimmerman out on bond was to do reinactments of what the trial will consist of and his croos examination by the prosecution. Zimmerman is not too bright and the state will destroy all of his made up accounts of what happened.

But something does have to change with this SYG law. Self defense was enough to have into play. I agree that one should only use force when protecting themselves or loved ones, which should be anywhere at all, not just in ones home. But wherever possible a person should try to get out of the situation without using deadly force. Zimmerman should NEVER have gotten out of his car, how can you claim that you were in fear of someone that you are pursuing? It makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not saying that he was on the prey for Trayvon, but he was a ticking bomb with that loaded gun. This is one person that should never have been given a permit to carry, he shouldn't of even had a gun with his history of anger more less a permit to carry.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by WeeBonnie on Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:25 pm

I agree there always should be an investigation but the police can decide they find the shooters story credible and forego a full investigation. There seems to be some confusion - or incompetance on the SPD's part that they didn't protect forensics or take full witness statements. Maybe they were reluctant because they believed GZs story at first and felt no charges could be brought.

Gizmo711 wrote:
serenaz1 wrote:

I think this part of the SYG/self-defense laws need to be changed. Unless it's where someone entered your home & assaulted you, then it needs to be investigated like any other case until it's PROVEN that it was self-defense. So evidence needs to be collected properly, all that kind of crap. It's so frustrating that someone can claim SD and not have it investigated to confirm what happened.


Actually there is supposed to be an investigation. The SPD didn't conduct one, they took Zimmermans account as to what happened. The SYG law is not intended for someone to shoot at will, murder someone and then say that it was SYG. Actually SYG will not come into play in this case. Zimmerman persued his victim (911 tapes). Zimmerman started the altercation (which ever way one looks at it, even if Trayvon threw the first punch). If Zimmerman wants to play the SYG law, then Trayvon had as much right to be standing his ground against a 9mm gun being pointed at him for no reason. Zimmerman has given too many accounts of what took place, he will be ripped to threads on that stand and he has to take the stand.

I'm sure that one of the reason that O'Mara wanted Zimmerman out on bond was to do reinactments of what the trial will consist of and his croos examination by the prosecution. Zimmerman is not too bright and the state will destroy all of his made up accounts of what happened.

But something does have to change with this SYG law. Self defense was enough to have into play. I agree that one should only use force when protecting themselves or loved ones, which should be anywhere at all, not just in ones home. But wherever possible a person should try to get out of the situation without using deadly force. Zimmerman should NEVER have gotten out of his car, how can you claim that you were in fear of someone that you are pursuing? It makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not saying that he was on the prey for Trayvon, but he was a ticking bomb with that loaded gun. This is one person that should never have been given a permit to carry, he shouldn't of even had a gun with his history of anger more less a permit to carry.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Tamta on Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:29 pm

How about a No Discussion Discovery Thread and then a discussion Evidence Thread, as a constrained context to scrutinize, arrange, speculate, and discuss on ALL of the factual variables together?
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by WeeBonnie on Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:29 pm

I agree and am glad the Martins are raising awareness.
Police are under pressure to avoid making arrests where charges are going to be dropped- it makes their dept look bad in this day and age where stats are collected frequently and help up as a measure of their success. The police shld never be given incentive to forgo a full investigation or give some people more of a benefit of the doubt. It stinks!

serenaz1 wrote:
WeeBonnie wrote:There's some part of SYG that I think inhibits their ability to do a normal investigation or arrest. I am not clear on the details but from what I read it actually gives your average citizen more protection- or benefit of the doubt than a policeman who has shot a suspect.
It helps people avoid both arrests and trials and puts fear into PDs that they will be sued for false arrest. The NRA found a way to help their constituents avoid the normal judicial process starting immediately after the crime occured.
It's unconstitutional- special rights for trigger happy people.

I think this part of the SYG/self-defense laws need to be changed. Unless it's where someone entered your home & assaulted you, then it needs to be investigated like any other case until it's PROVEN that it was self-defense. So evidence needs to be collected properly, all that kind of crap. It's so frustrating that someone can claim SD and not have it investigated to confirm what happened.


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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Gizmo711 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:39 pm

WeeBonnie wrote:Interesting he says he slapped his hand away here- id always thought he said he caught it between his arm and ribcage? And this is one (rare)point where I thought he'd always been consistent.
But like everything else, GZ rembered it two different ways.
This is a huge problem because it goes to the heart of SYG and self defense.
If he cannot consistently relay a viable story...


ellejay wrote:--page 78

--mark tells it as told to him by george:

--"martin and zimmerman struggled which resulted in martin gaining a position on top of zimmerman, sitting on zimmerman in the "mounted" position, martin's butt on zimmerman's stomach w/ martin's knees on the ground next to zimmerman's ribs."

--(like this george?)..b/c it makes zero sense that you're going to be able to get at your "firearm"...



--"martin then told zimmerman to "shut the fu*k up" and martin placed one of his hands over zimmerman's nose and one over z's mouth. martin then observed or felt the handgun on z's side, took his other hand away from z's nose and reached for the gun stating "you're gonna die now motherfuc*er". "

--"zimmerman slapped martin's hand away from the handgun, pulled the handgun, rotated the weapon, and fired one round."

--george shows how he---george-the-contortionist-- did manage to get out his gun...

...hmmm...i don't believe you george.

First of all, why would Trayvon have told George to shut the F**k up when the screaming would bring help, Trayvon did not have a weapon, it was Zimmerman with the loaded gun. Trayvon would have been wishing for someone to come and help him.

I think it was Zimmerman who told Trayvon to "shut the f**k up" and when he screamed even louder Zimmerman shot him to shut him up, then claimed it was him that was screaming.

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by Gizmo711 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:41 pm

WeeBonnie wrote:I agree there always should be an investigation but the police can decide they find the shooters story credible and forego a full investigation. There seems to be some confusion - or incompetance on the SPD's part that they didn't protect forensics or take full witness statements. Maybe they were reluctant because they believed GZs story at first and felt no charges could be brought.

Gizmo711 wrote:

Actually there is supposed to be an investigation. The SPD didn't conduct one, they took Zimmermans account as to what happened. The SYG law is not intended for someone to shoot at will, murder someone and then say that it was SYG. Actually SYG will not come into play in this case. Zimmerman persued his victim (911 tapes). Zimmerman started the altercation (which ever way one looks at it, even if Trayvon threw the first punch). If Zimmerman wants to play the SYG law, then Trayvon had as much right to be standing his ground against a 9mm gun being pointed at him for no reason. Zimmerman has given too many accounts of what took place, he will be ripped to threads on that stand and he has to take the stand.

I'm sure that one of the reason that O'Mara wanted Zimmerman out on bond was to do reinactments of what the trial will consist of and his croos examination by the prosecution. Zimmerman is not too bright and the state will destroy all of his made up accounts of what happened.

But something does have to change with this SYG law. Self defense was enough to have into play. I agree that one should only use force when protecting themselves or loved ones, which should be anywhere at all, not just in ones home. But wherever possible a person should try to get out of the situation without using deadly force. Zimmerman should NEVER have gotten out of his car, how can you claim that you were in fear of someone that you are pursuing? It makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not saying that he was on the prey for Trayvon, but he was a ticking bomb with that loaded gun. This is one person that should never have been given a permit to carry, he shouldn't of even had a gun with his history of anger more less a permit to carry.

I think they just assumed Trayvon was a hoodlum and thought that nothing was going to come of this killing. Surprise, someone did care, his parents.......

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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by serenaz1 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Tamta wrote:How about a No Discussion Discovery Thread and then a discussion Evidence Thread, as a constrained context to scrutinize, arrange, speculate, and discuss on ALL of the factual variables together?

I'm not sure I'm understanding this; so you'd have one thread that lists/links the Discovery, but with no discussion. Then another thread to discuss everything, including the new dump of calls? So would this be separate from the library thread?
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

Post by ellejay on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:35 am

Tamta wrote:How about a No Discussion Discovery Thread and then a discussion Evidence Thread, as a constrained context to scrutinize, arrange, speculate, and discuss on ALL of the factual variables together?

--don't we already have that?

--any new discovery has been going into the library (for no discussion) w/ threads being set up for discussion ON new discovery.

--or are you saying ALL new discovery should be discussed on one thread, as opposed to breaking it down into it's own thing?

--personally, i like the idea of individual threads per individual discovery ( as the case drags on, it will make it so much easier to refer back if need be..)
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Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 -- Zimmerman/Martin Case

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