Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Page 1 of 21 1, 2, 3 ... 11 ... 21  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by GlaringError on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:24 am

Tamta wrote:
glazier wrote:Tamta - Your 1 post above where you say:
' LE is taking a position more like the Defense dealing
with reasonable doubt ...' *
OUTSTANDING!
You hit upon something here that I sensed, but failed to
articulate. Almost like they have assumed the same position
that a Defense Attorney would.

Many times LE is scorned for being over zealous in investigating the Family(ie LisaIrwin case)
This case seems to be OPPOSITE?
Very strange indeed.

* Forgive me for paraphrasing. Hopefully I got the gist right


That tells you who has been running the investigation- LAWYERS.

I also think it looks like trial case based on a very weak theory where one side simply refuses to put forth any evidence yet just sits and waits for their turn at cross examination, so they can throw around malleable facts, blatant inaccuracies or factual insufficiencies, and gross speculations. (Bold by me).
Who is more talented at disrespecting and despising the law more than anyone else?
LAWYERS.

(Disclaimer: In case my friends find out I wrote that! That can also be said with admiration as well, when that talent is put forth towards a greater good.)


avatar
GlaringError

Posts : 124
Join date : 2012-06-11
Mood : Innocent

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:22 am

GlaringError wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

I don't really see a tied slip knot. The rope is pulled through the manufactured loop. Why are there 2 purple arrows in the picture each pointing to a knot? Both those knots were tied into to the rope and neither function as slip knots. The manufactured loop functions as a large loop type slip for the rope. The link posted below shows how to tie a slip knot.Afro

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Tie-a-Slip-Knot/step7/null/

BBM... wasn't sure if you were being facetious. Were you?

I think someone put the arrows in to point out extraneous knots in the slip knot loop. Are those extra knots manufactured into the rope. they look the perfect length from eachother that they become hand holds for someone holding the rope during water sport fun?

GlaringError~

Thanks. Actually I was not being facetious. I was trying to figure out what was going on so I asked a question.

Thank you for your response. Though I feel your response was somewhat rude it did help me to better understand the photograph. The top knot appears to be the manufactured knot. However, the bottom knot is not shown in the first photograph and appears to have been tied into the rope for a purpose.

The white arrow shows how the rope is threaded over part of the bed frame.

I don't know anything about ropes or knots so that is why I posted the site I used as slip knot reference. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:30 am

Calypso wrote:Wig-o-matic~

You bring up some good points and possibilities.

All comes down to the same thing, this wasn't a suicide.

Calypso~

Thanks for understanding my points and possibilities. I agree. This wasn't a suicide. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:52 am

GlaringError wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Imo, Rebecca was murdered as a ritual sacrifice. Read the literature. She was a classic sacrificial scapegoat victim.

The sacrificial scapegoat victim is usually unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a purifying cleansing done with water prior to the murder. The victim is often anointed with oil but in this case black paint was used. Her hands were bound and her legs were taped to the chair prior being strangled to death. One of the paint brush handles may have been used to fashion a garrote.

That she may have been hogtied like an animal afterwards appears to be symbolic as well.

Please view the link below for information on garrote execution. Note the position of the victim's knees in the illustrations provided. All the above is just my opinion. Afro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote



Happy Friday, Wig~0~Matic...

Can you please give me the details of how you came to this conclusion, in full? I am not asking this in jest or in order to be slyly rude.... I am trying to understand how you arrived at that conclusion. The garrote possibility is interesting. But what do you use, other than a wikipedia garotte citation, to determine in your mind that this is a ritualistic murder?

Trying to figure out if this is a diversion tactic, to be honest.



GlarringError~

No I am not a paid poster nor am I creating a diversion tactic.

I was referring to comments about ritual killing made by Maurice Godwin, especially in regard to the black paint. Maurice Godwin is a seasoned forensic investigator with his own consultancy agency. I consider him to have enough knowledge and experience to be credible.

Cyril Wecht is also highly knowledgeable and experienced. He determined that Rebecca was probably murdered and that the case should not have been closed.

It is my opinion that Rebecca was used as a classic example of scapegoating.

I wondered about the garrote because indicators point to the possibility that her legs were taped to the white wicker chair. Why? Also she had a thinner ligature mark beside the one made by the rope that could have been made before the rope was put on her neck.

There were two paint brushes at the crime scene. Why?

If you recall a paint brush handle was used for a garrote in the Jonbenet murder.

If you require any further explanation please ask politely next time. TIA. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Eileen_Dover on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:57 am

Wig-O : About the knots in photo.. That's how I see it as well… The top knot is the manufactured one, the lower one was hand made. You can see it is a double in the sense it is thicker than the manufactured one… as if it was made by doubling back on the tow rope to make the loop either tighter or shorter? Not sure.. Am open to suggestions as to why the extra knot..
avatar
Eileen_Dover

Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Excited

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:16 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:Wig-O : About the knots in photo.. That's how I see it as well… The top knot is the manufactured one, the lower one was hand made. You can see it is a double in the sense it is thicker than the manufactured one… as if it was made by doubling back on the tow rope to make the loop either tighter or shorter? Not sure.. Am open to suggestions as to why the extra knot..

Eileen~

Thank you for understanding my question.

Yes. The second knot made the slip 'loop' smaller. It was probably difficult to do. Would you tie the extra knot first and then feed the rope length through the shortened loop?

I'm still trying to understand the significance of what is happening with the second knot. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Eileen_Dover on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:36 pm

A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...

avatar
Eileen_Dover

Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Excited

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:51 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Hi eileen

My previous reply to this post of yours was similar to your suggestion.

My speculation was its purpose may have been shunting the weight of the bed on the rope to keep the bed from moving further.

The extra length of rope not cut off may have been used to lower her and adjust her hanging height and whoever did it was working off of the bed weight.
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:16 pm

Tamta wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Hi eileen

My previous reply to this post of yours was similar to your suggestion.

My speculation was its purpose may have been shunting the weight of the bed on the rope to keep the bed from moving further.

The extra length of rope not cut off may have been used to lower her and adjust her hanging height and whoever did it was working off of the bed weight.

Tamata~

Yes. I believe you a correct. If the slip 'loop' had not been shortened then the bed would have yanked harder with the longer loop.

The second loop appears to have been calculated for the purpose of stabilizing the bed during the drop. The extra length of the rope could have been used for the manner you suggested. It would be nice to see some close-ups of the cut end of the rope. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by glazier on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:31 pm

I have worked with ropes throughout my life and
have tied Thousands of Knots of all different types,
and I see nothing extroidinary about any of the knots in this
case. They exclude no one and and don't prove anything one
way or the other.

glazier

Posts : 147
Join date : 2012-06-23
Mood : Frying Pan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:32 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down. Could the extra knot also prevent the bed from lifting up during the drop?

The extra knot definitely appears to be a stabilizing mechanism. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:37 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down.Afro

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.

avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:42 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

Eileen~

The figure eight type looping in this photograph does appear to be the same as what was done in the sheriff's demonstration of how Rebecca allegedly tied her own hands behind her back.Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:49 pm

Tamta wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down.Afro

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.

Tamata~

I believe you are correct. I can now see that the weight of the body going over the balcony would cause the rope to pull downward.

The rope is threaded under and then over the back of the bar behind the bed post. It comes out through the loop and toward the body at a downward angle. When the body was dropped it's weight pulled downward on the rope. The downward force prevented the bed from jumping up and 'losing' the loop.

Imo, the second knot appears to have been done with calculated knowledge. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:08 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Tamta wrote:

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.

Tamata~

Actually, I believe you are correct again. I can now see that the weight of the body going over the balcony would cause the rope to pull downward. Because the rope is threaded over the bar behind the bed post the body's weight would prevent the bed from jumping up and 'losing' the loop. Afro

This is a point where I would speculate on another person assisting.

She had to be carried, placed over the railing and once dropped, raised or lowered to adjust to a credible looking hanging height.

It's possible that someone was manning the rope and someone was the 'eyes'.

Otherwise he would have had to tie her off, run and check, unlash and pull or lower until reaching desired hanging height.
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:14 pm

glazier wrote:I have worked with ropes throughout my life and
have tied Thousands of Knots of all different types,
and I see nothing extroidinary about any of the knots in this
case. They exclude no one and and don't prove anything one
way or the other.

Glazier~

There is probably nothing extraordinary about the knot itself.

However, the purpose for the location of the second knot indicated a working knowledge of how to counter and stabilize the motion between the two weights of the bed above and body weight dropped downward. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:26 pm

Tamta wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Tamata~

Actually, I believe you are correct again. I can now see that the weight of the body going over the balcony would cause the rope to pull downward. Because the rope is threaded over the bar behind the bed post the body's weight would prevent the bed from jumping up and 'losing' the loop. Afro

This is a point where I would speculate on another person assisting.

She had to be carried, placed over the railing and once dropped, raised or lowered to adjust to a credible looking hanging height.

It's possible that someone was manning the rope and someone was the 'eyes'.

Otherwise he would have had to tie her off, run and check, unlash and pull or lower until reaching desired hanging height.

Tamata~

Your speculation is credibly built on scientific theory.

In your scenario I would guess the person on the balcony manning the rope required great strength to hoist and lower an hundred pounds of dead weight.

Imo, a rope length adjustment process with up and down movement could have also further damaged Rebecca's torn strap muscle. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Lash on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:37 pm

Tamta wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down.Afro

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.



BBM - Totally agree! The second knot appears to have had a thought out purpose.

Why would the knot need to guarantee the greatest resistance if the victim was to be hoisted? In my opinion it only makes sense to apply such precise detail for an over the balcony hanging or drop if you will.
avatar
Lash

Posts : 1583
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Tamta wrote:

This is a point where I would speculate on another person assisting.

She had to be carried, placed over the railing and once dropped, raised or lowered to adjust to a credible looking hanging height.

It's possible that someone was manning the rope and someone was the 'eyes'.

Otherwise he would have had to tie her off, run and check, unlash and pull or lower until reaching desired hanging height.

Tamata~

Your speculation is credibly built on scientific theory.

In your scenario I would guess the person on the balcony manning the rope required great strength to hoist and lower an hundred pounds of dead weight.

Imo, a rope length adjustment process with up and down movement could have also further damaged Rebecca's torn strap muscle. Afro

I don't see her being tied off but it's possible something in that room could have been available to do it.
She also could have been lowered, left for awhile in contact with the ground, then raised again.



avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:48 pm

Lash wrote:
Tamta wrote:

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.



BBM - Totally agree! The second knot appears to have had a thought out purpose.

Why would the knot need to guarantee the greatest resistance if the victim was to be hoisted? In my opinion it only makes sense to apply such precise detail for an over the balcony hanging or drop if you will.

I think she was dropped for sure.

whoever did this also appeared to have the ability to visually gauge what amount of material they needed to achieve their aim.
They appeared to be operating from experience even if their knots were not precision and not able to be inconclusively attributed to a particular background or profession.

However I can see her being hoisted slightly to achieve credibility for possible suicide.

avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Lash wrote:
Tamta wrote:

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.



BBM - Totally agree! The second knot appears to have had a thought out purpose.

Why would the knot need to guarantee the greatest resistance if the victim was to be hoisted? In my opinion it only makes sense to apply such precise detail for an over the balcony hanging or drop if you will.

The body could have been hoisted up after the rope length was determined and then thrown over to try and break the neck. However, since she was probably already dead when that occurred there was not enough tension in her body to cause her neck to break. This though might explain the badly damaged strap muscle. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:57 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Lash wrote:

BBM - Totally agree! The second knot appears to have had a thought out purpose.

Why would the knot need to guarantee the greatest resistance if the victim was to be hoisted? In my opinion it only makes sense to apply such precise detail for an over the balcony hanging or drop if you will.

The body could have been hoisted up after the rope length was determined and then thrown over to try and break the neck. However, since she was probably already dead when that occurred there was not enough tension in her body to cause her neck to break. This though might explain the badly damaged strap muscle. Afro

I speculate because of her dirty feet and bent lower extremities in rigor mortis that she spent some time in foot to ground contact around the time that she died.

avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Lash on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:30 pm

Tamta wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

The body could have been hoisted up after the rope length was determined and then thrown over to try and break the neck. However, since she was probably already dead when that occurred there was not enough tension in her body to cause her neck to break. This though might explain the badly damaged strap muscle. Afro

I speculate because of her dirty feet and bent lower extremities in rigor mortis that she spent some time in foot to ground contact around the time that she died.


In my opinion this person knew exactly what they were doing. I don't think the hoisting calculation was even needed. It appears to me the precision, detail and holding method is from someone well experienced. I don't mean someone experienced in hanging human beings. I believe there would have been more of a disturbance on the railing and balcony floor if more calculations were needed. Just as many of us speculated would be if this was a suicide. Rebecca would have had to calculate and cause more of a disturbance on the balcony.

Was she hog tied? If so, how did this binding change? In my opinion it is feasible the knotting slipped or simply did not hold. There became a point she was no longer hog tied. Could this explain why there was no booting, because her legs had not been hanging vertical the entire time?

avatar
Lash

Posts : 1583
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:51 pm

Tamta wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down.Afro

Who ever did this, if you notice, the rope is at angle, going around the bed leg and the adjacent end of the bed frame.

This guarantees the greatest resistance against mass and protects the rope from slipping down the leg and being disengaged if the bed popped up for some reason.

The second knot appears to help the configuration function as a modified running bowline. Compare the similarities of configuration and function especially under the 'Alternatives' section at the link below:

http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinerunning/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Here is an excerpt:

Running Bowline Details
Uses: The Running Bowline (ABOK # 1117, p 204) is a valuable way of tying a type of noose which will not bind and can be slid undone easily. In boating it is recommended for use when retrieving lumber or rigging which has fallen overboard and in climbing for retrieving objects in places such as crevasses. At home it is useful to hang a Child's Swing. The first challenge is to find a suitable branch and the second is to successfully throw the rope over it.

Options: When the Standing End is available, it is often easier to first tie the Bowline and then thread the Standing End through it.

Retrieval: Once the knot is snug up against the branch, retrieval later can be a problem. The knot may be twenty feet in the air and you have neither intrepid rope climbers nor long ladders. Advance planning provides options: either a light retrievable line attached to the bowline or a very long tail to the bowline. However, if the long end option is considered, the Alpine Butterfly Loop would be better because it requires no threading of a long end to tie it.

Alternatives: A similar running noose could be created with various loop knots - including the Noose itself. The advantage of using a knot like a bowline is that it will not close up and bind on the standing end. So long as the rope is under tension, the running bowline will grip its load - or the branch. When not loaded the knot can be easily undone. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:13 pm

Lash wrote:
Tamta wrote:

I speculate because of her dirty feet and bent lower extremities in rigor mortis that she spent some time in foot to ground contact around the time that she died.


In my opinion this person knew exactly what they were doing. I don't think the hoisting calculation was even needed. It appears to me the precision, detail and holding method is from someone well experienced. I don't mean someone experienced in hanging human beings. I believe there would have been more of a disturbance on the railing and balcony floor if more calculations were needed. Just as many of us speculated would be if this was a suicide. Rebecca would have had to calculate and cause more of a disturbance on the balcony.

Was she hog tied? If so, how did this binding change? In my opinion it is feasible the knotting slipped or simply did not hold. There became a point she was no longer hog tied. Could this explain why there was no booting, because her legs had not been hanging vertical the entire time?

If she was no longer hogtied then her legs would have been hanging down and there would have been booting. No?
Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Consider the following hypothetical scenario if you will.

Let's say that about 12MN Rebecca was placed in the wicker chair with her legs taped to the chair's legs and garroted to death.

Suppose the chair fell backwards during the murder and was left in that position on the floor with her in it for several hours.

This would explained how her legs stiffened with knees bent and apart as were shown in the photographs but the livor mortis settled in her back.

This theory could explain the following:

tape residue on legs
extra paint brush
overturned white wicker chair
additional thinner ligature mark
rigor mortis with knees bent and separated
livor mortis in back
no booting (legs were elevated)
anterior throat bones crushed
bilateral periorbital, conjunctival and oral petechiae
abrasions and contusions to the back, buttocks, back of arms and legs

Consider if you will that after remaining in this position for several hours it was decided to stage a hanging suicide. She was then bound hands behind. Since her legs had already stiffened into a bizzare position maybe the killed had to hogtie them to make a more compact package to throw over the balcony.

Being thrown over the balcony after she died can account for the following:

neck did not break after long drop
no decapitation occurred
torn strap muscle
extra foot prints on balcony
minor dust disturbance on rail
doors were closed and lights turned out after the hanging
hair was under the noose

Rebecca was already laying on the grass when paramedics arrived. Her neck, arms and legs were still bound. Her legs were in rigor mortis with knees bent and slightly apart from the photos taken later. Livor mortis was fixed in her back according to the AR.Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Eileen_Dover on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:00 pm

glazier wrote:I have worked with ropes throughout my life and
have tied Thousands of Knots of all different types,
and I see nothing extroidinary about any of the knots in this
case. They exclude no one and and don't prove anything one
way or the other.
Hi Glazier - You say you've worked with ropes throughout your life, thus you see nothing extraordinary about the knots.
Understandable for someone with such experience, but nowhere is it documented that Rebecca knew diddly squat about ropes or knots.
I am an experienced certified rock climber. Never in a million years would I think to bind my wrists in the fashion demonstrated by SDSO.
If you Google images "binding wrists with rope" or anything similar, not one single image is wrapped like that.
You are correct that the bindings do not prove anything, but the ankle / wrist bindings are definitely unique.
The CBS8 demonstration had the benefit of having seen the SDSO demo.
Over the past 11 months I have asked those who visit to bind their wrists, and not a single one executed it in a figure 8.
avatar
Eileen_Dover

Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Excited

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:06 pm

Eileen_Dover wrote:
glazier wrote:I have worked with ropes throughout my life and
have tied Thousands of Knots of all different types,
and I see nothing extroidinary about any of the knots in this
case. They exclude no one and and don't prove anything one
way or the other.
Hi Glazier - You say you've worked with ropes throughout your life, thus you see nothing extraordinary about the knots.
Understandable for someone with such experience, but nowhere is it documented that Rebecca knew diddly squat about ropes or knots.
I am an experienced certified rock climber. Never in a million years would I think to bind my wrists in the fashion demonstrated by SDSO.
If you Google images "binding wrists with rope" or anything similar, not one single image is wrapped like that.
You are correct that the bindings do not prove anything, but the ankle / wrist bindings are definitely unique.
The CBS8 demonstration had the benefit of having seen the SDSO demo.
Over the past 11 months I have asked those who visit to bind their wrists, and not a single one executed it in a figure 8.


Rope and Knots

There were actually at least 2 modified nautical knots used here.

A modified cleat hitch knot configuration was used on the hands.

A modified alternative running bowline was used on the bed post.

How were the ankles tied?

In addition the tow rope had a nautical theme as well.

Where was the rope found? Where was it cut? How was it measured? Was the person who selected the type of rope and knots used familiar with them by hobby or profession?

Wasn't there at some point a question as to whether Adam had spent time on Jonah's boat that night? It would make sense that he would want to see the boat. Did L.E. ever search the boat? Were any red tow rope shavings found?

It did not appear that the knives that were in the bedroom had any red fuzz or debris. Did L.E. ever speculate as to their purpose at the crime scene?

I still have many questions about this.Afro

avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:32 pm

Wig-o-matic wrote:
GlaringError wrote:

Happy Friday, Wig~0~Matic...

Can you please give me the details of how you came to this conclusion, in full? I am not asking this in jest or in order to be slyly rude.... I am trying to understand how you arrived at that conclusion. The garrote possibility is interesting. But what do you use, other than a wikipedia garotte citation, to determine in your mind that this is a ritualistic murder?

Trying to figure out if this is a diversion tactic, to be honest.



GlarringError~

No I am not a paid poster nor am I creating a diversion tactic.

I was referring to comments about ritual killing made by Maurice Godwin, especially in regard to the black paint. Maurice Godwin is a seasoned forensic investigator with his own consultancy agency. I consider him to have enough knowledge and experience to be credible.

Cyril Wecht is also highly knowledgeable and experienced. He determined that Rebecca was probably murdered and that the case should not have been closed.

It is my opinion that Rebecca was used as a classic example of scapegoating.

I wondered about the garrote because indicators point to the possibility that her legs were taped to the white wicker chair. Why? Also she had a thinner ligature mark beside the one made by the rope that could have been made before the rope was put on her neck.

There were two paint brushes at the crime scene. Why?

If you recall a paint brush handle was used for a garrote in the Jonbenet murder.

If you require any further explanation please ask politely next time. TIA. Afro

GlaringE~

Below are more reasons why I believe Rebecca's death was rife with ritualistic overtones.

BTY, 'The Golden Bough" by Frazer is an excellent resource for the study of comparative mythology and religion. It contains excellent examples of how ritual killing traverses many religions and cultures and appears to be as old as time.


Ritualistic Elements and Themes at the Crime Scene

Was the color red significant here? Towing rope comes in different colors. Why was red rope used? There was also a red blanket and dog bone in the room and red drinking cups in the house. Rebecca shed blood through out the house and a white paper towel with red stains was taken into evidence.

Was the color black significant here? How did the black paint get onto Rebecca's chest? Who wrote the message on the door? Why was black paint used? Why was the message ambiguous? Did the message contain a double meaning? Also, there was also a flat black square shaped item shown under the southeast bedpost. The item was visible in the evidence photograph but did not have a marker. Was the item inventoried? If not why? Someone on THM suggested that it could have been a folded executioner's hood.

Other ritualistic elements may have been the circular table and candle found in the courtyard.

Also the way Rebecca was put on display like an animal that had been bound and strangled with shed blood (sacrifical lamb vs scapegoat/sin offering) was ritualistic.

Other ritualistic themes include cleansing (she was showered),nudity, sacrifice (she was strangled and bound) and sexuality.

I hope this helps to answer your question. There are so many more questions to explore here. Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Scoobydoo on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:07 am

Hey everyone...I finally decided to register-I've been a long time reader (came here after following from THM). Like many of you, I have a lot of questions-and have my own theories/speculations etc.

I'm not sure what drew me to this case-but after initially reading about it-I was hooked.

Anyway, I am on vacation and today took the kiddos to Sea World-somehow convinced the hubby to drive to the mansion. It's dark out and I only got a few pics of 1043 Ocean Blvd.-but it has a very eerie feeling to me Sad. Hubby went across to see the ocean, & I freaked out sitting in the car by myself. It feels like such a place of sadness between the tragedies of Max and Rebecca.

I told my husband I wanted to get out, walk around, & chat with the locals-and he laughed at me! Lol! He said "Listen, Scooby Doo, it ain't happening!" lol!
So... Just wanted to introduce myself, & hopefully I'll be able to post interactively!

Just curious-are there many locals posting here? If so, do people still talk about her death? What's the local consensus?

Thanks!
Scooby

Scoobydoo

Posts : 3
Join date : 2012-07-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:35 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
GlaringError wrote:

BBM... wasn't sure if you were being facetious. Were you?

I think someone put the arrows in to point out extraneous knots in the slip knot loop. Are those extra knots manufactured into the rope. they look the perfect length from eachother that they become hand holds for someone holding the rope during water sport fun?

GlaringError~

Thanks. Actually I was not being facetious. I was trying to figure out what was going on so I asked a question.

Thank you for your response. Though I feel your response was somewhat rude it did help me to better understand the photograph. The top knot appears to be the manufactured knot. However, the bottom knot is not shown in the first photograph and appears to have been tied into the rope for a purpose.

The white arrow shows how the rope is threaded over part of the bed frame.

I don't know anything about ropes or knots so that is why I posted the site I used as slip knot reference. Afro

Wig - what you just posted is the way I interpret the knots, too: 1 was originally there and 1 "extra" was tied there for "some reason" - don't know why because I'm not savvy on knots either...however, it leads me to think that the person tying that extra knot did it for a reason - a reason that someone knowledgeable understood and, therefore, specifically added that knot at that point.
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:37 am

Scoobydoo wrote:Hey everyone...I finally decided to register-I've been a long time reader (came here after following from THM). Like many of you, I have a lot of questions-and have my own theories/speculations etc.

I'm not sure what drew me to this case-but after initially reading about it-I was hooked.

Anyway, I am on vacation and today took the kiddos to Sea World-somehow convinced the hubby to drive to the mansion. It's dark out and I only got a few pics of 1043 Ocean Blvd.-but it has a very eerie feeling to me Sad. Hubby went across to see the ocean, & I freaked out sitting in the car by myself. It feels like such a place of sadness between the tragedies of Max and Rebecca.

I told my husband I wanted to get out, walk around, & chat with the locals-and he laughed at me! Lol! He said "Listen, Scooby Doo, it ain't happening!" lol!
So... Just wanted to introduce myself, & hopefully I'll be able to post interactively!

Just curious-are there many locals posting here? If so, do people still talk about her death? What's the local consensus?

Thanks!
Scooby

Welcome aboard, Scooby!

Will you be posting any of the pictures you took of the mansion?
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:42 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:
Hi Glazier - You say you've worked with ropes throughout your life, thus you see nothing extraordinary about the knots.
Understandable for someone with such experience, but nowhere is it documented that Rebecca knew diddly squat about ropes or knots.
I am an experienced certified rock climber. Never in a million years would I think to bind my wrists in the fashion demonstrated by SDSO.
If you Google images "binding wrists with rope" or anything similar, not one single image is wrapped like that.
You are correct that the bindings do not prove anything, but the ankle / wrist bindings are definitely unique.
The CBS8 demonstration had the benefit of having seen the SDSO demo.
Over the past 11 months I have asked those who visit to bind their wrists, and not a single one executed it in a figure 8.


Rope and Knots

There were actually at least 2 modified nautical knots used here.

A modified cleat hitch knot configuration was used on the hands.

A modified alternative running bowline was used on the bed post.

How were the ankles tied?

In addition the tow rope had a nautical theme as well.

Where was the rope found? Where was it cut? How was it measured? Was the person who selected the type of rope and knots used familiar with them by hobby or profession?

Wasn't there at some point a question as to whether Adam had spent time on Jonah's boat that night? It would make sense that he would want to see the boat. Did L.E. ever search the boat? Were any red tow rope shavings found?

It did not appear that the knives that were in the bedroom had any red fuzz or debris. Did L.E. ever speculate as to their purpose at the crime scene?

I still have many questions about this.Afro


Do we know if LE "vaccumed" the room with the balcony? That would have seemed to be the right thing to do, especially when collecting evidence. After all, at the beginning it was considered a "suspicious death".
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:51 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:Consider the following hypothetical scenario if you will.

Let's say that about 12MN Rebecca was placed in the wicker chair with her legs taped to the chair's legs and garroted to death.

Suppose the chair fell backwards during the murder and was left in that position on the floor with her in it for several hours.

This would explained how her legs stiffened with knees bent and apart as were shown in the photographs but the livor mortis settled in her back.

This theory could explain the following:

tape residue on legs
extra paint brush
overturned white wicker chair
additional thinner ligature mark
rigor mortis with knees bent and separated
livor mortis in back
no booting (legs were elevated)
anterior throat bones crushed
bilateral periorbital, conjunctival and oral petechiae
abrasions and contusions to the back, buttocks, back of arms and legs

Consider if you will that after remaining in this position for several hours it was decided to stage a hanging suicide. She was then bound hands behind. Since her legs had already stiffened into a bizzare position maybe the killed had to hogtie them to make a more compact package to throw over the balcony.

Being thrown over the balcony after she died can account for the following:

neck did not break after long drop
no decapitation occurred
torn strap muscle
extra foot prints on balcony
minor dust disturbance on rail
doors were closed and lights turned out after the hanging
hair was under the noose

Rebecca was already laying on the grass when paramedics arrived. Her neck, arms and legs were still bound. Her legs were in rigor mortis with knees bent and slightly apart from the photos taken later. Livor mortis was fixed in her back according to the AR.Afro

Thanks for the theory. Yes...being thrown off the balcony could be a little less forceful than someone hurling over the railing on their own....in other words ...that might make a difference in why the neck wasn't broken or wasn't decapitated (as that long of a drop could well cause), but yet it was forceful enough to cause all that muscle damage.

And...that chair...it has always bothered me as to why LE didn't think there were any signs of a struggle in the room, even with that chair being turned over....like LE walked all around the elephant in the room.


Last edited by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:56 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down. Could the extra knot also prevent the bed from lifting up during the drop?

The extra knot definitely appears to be a stabilizing mechanism. Afro

Thank you for that comment! It makes sense to me - as I said before, I thought that the person tying that 2nd knot was knowledgeable and did it for a desired result. Yep! So the rope wouldn't slip down and slip off when the bed moved

I just do not think that RZ had that kind of knowledge. This was done by someone very knowledgeable about rope knots.

Thanks, again!


Last edited by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:32 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:07 am

Eileen, Tamtra, Wig - thanks to all for your astute comments about the "knots"...and the "H" knot we now know is not "random" and "is" known and is specifically used on tugboats.

I so hope that someone on Team AB is reading this thread; or that the professionals working with AB on the case have figured this out already; or at the very least, someone that has communications with AB will make sure that she has this knowledge.
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:30 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Eileen_Dover wrote:A better view of second knot - IMO it was knotted before slipping the rope through the bed post, perhaps to ensure if when the bed jumped, the rope wouldn't slip under the post? making it a tighter fit?? No idea really...


Eileen~

I don't think the rope would slip under the bed post because it is threaded over the bar behind the post so it can't move down. Could the extra knot also prevent the bed from lifting up during the drop?

The extra knot definitely appears to be a stabilizing mechanism. Afro

Okay...I'm a little confused and maybe someone can help me understand.

I looked back a the "new coil of rope" at this post: by Eileen_Dover on Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:11 pmand there's a yellow piece at the end of the rope, just before the loop. IIRC, I remember reading that the yellow piece was still attached to the rope. I "assumed" (maybe incorrectly) that that particular yellow piece was the end that was attached to the bedframe and that it's not seen because it's to the back of the frame from where the picture was taken.

If that's right, then how long is that original loop at the end of the "new rope" and was long enough to tie a knot in the loop, the yellow piece be beind the frame and another knot at the end.

Sorry, that's too confusing...uh..if the yellow piece was not attached to the bedframe then that answers that question...but if the yellow piece and the "original loop" was used around the bedframe, then does that make the "extra knot" the knot to the inside?

I am not familiar with this kind of rope so I'm not aware how long that manufactured original loop on the rope is; it might be longer than what I'm speculating.

I don't recall if the original yellow portion's location was ever stated as being at the bedframe or on the noose...but it seems likely to me that it was at the bedframe.

Sorry, I've confused myself and now I need help getting my thoughts straight on this. TIA awe
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Eileen_Dover on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:04 am

Hi Puzzler - the yellow piece was around her ankles... is stated in RZ AR. Sorry, am in a rush so can't copy that to here at moment. Can do later...
avatar
Eileen_Dover

Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Excited

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Wig-o-matic on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:15 am

Puzzler wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:Consider the following hypothetical scenario if you will.

Let's say that about 12MN Rebecca was placed in the wicker chair with her legs taped to the chair's legs and garroted to death.

Suppose the chair fell backwards during the murder and was left in that position on the floor with her in it for several hours.

This would explained how her legs stiffened with knees bent and apart as were shown in the photographs but the livor mortis settled in her back.

This theory could explain the following:

tape residue on legs
extra paint brush
overturned white wicker chair
additional thinner ligature mark
rigor mortis with knees bent and separated
livor mortis in back
no booting (legs were elevated)
anterior throat bones crushed
bilateral periorbital, conjunctival and oral petechiae
abrasions and contusions to the back, buttocks, back of arms and legs

Consider if you will that after remaining in this position for several hours it was decided to stage a hanging suicide. She was then bound hands behind. Since her legs had already stiffened into a bizzare position maybe the killed had to hogtie them to make a more compact package to throw over the balcony.

Being thrown over the balcony after she died can account for the following:

neck did not break after long drop
no decapitation occurred
torn strap muscle
extra foot prints on balcony
minor dust disturbance on rail
doors were closed and lights turned out after the hanging
hair was under the noose

Rebecca was already laying on the grass when paramedics arrived. Her neck, arms and legs were still bound. Her legs were in rigor mortis with knees bent and slightly apart from the photos taken later. Livor mortis was fixed in her back according to the AR.Afro

Thanks for the theory. Yes...being thrown off the balcony could be a little less forceful than someone hurling over the railing on their own....in other words ...that might make a difference in why the neck wasn't broken or wasn't decapitated (as that long of a drop could well cause), but yet it was forceful enough to cause all that muscle damage.

And...that chair...it has always bothered me as to why LE didn't think there were any signs of a struggle in the room, even with that chair being turned over....like LE walked all around the elephant in the room.

Puzzler~

Thanks for taking the time to read, analyse and comment on the posts.

Red Blanket

I am now wondering if the purpose of the red blanket was to wrap and carry Rebecca into the room alive and fighting or out of the room dead. It may have also been used as a makeshift tarp to protect carpeting. It doesn't seem to fit with a suicide scenario so it should have been tested for DNA and rope shavings.

I'm also wondering if Rebecca was taped and strangled in the wicker chair and it tipped backwards afterward and fell on the floor. She could have been left in that position for a couple of hours until rigor mortis set in.

A strong person could have easily untapped the legs and turned the chair over to spill her out onto the red blanket. They could have turned her on her stomach and tied her neck, arms and legs while she was on the blanket. If the rope was cut on the blanket then that would explain why no shavings were found on the rug.

In the evidence photos it is shown looking crumpled and discarded next to the overturned white wicker chair. I believe the red blanket was there for a reason and may contain crucial evidence. What happened to the red blanket? Afro
avatar
Wig-o-matic

Posts : 92
Join date : 2012-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:22 am

Eileen_Dover wrote:Hi Puzzler - the yellow piece was around her ankles... is stated in RZ AR. Sorry, am in a rush so can't copy that to here at moment. Can do later...

No worries...that answers my question...thank you. Now I feel unconfused. Very Happy
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:29 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Puzzler wrote:

Thanks for the theory. Yes...being thrown off the balcony could be a little less forceful than someone hurling over the railing on their own....in other words ...that might make a difference in why the neck wasn't broken or wasn't decapitated (as that long of a drop could well cause), but yet it was forceful enough to cause all that muscle damage.

And...that chair...it has always bothered me as to why LE didn't think there were any signs of a struggle in the room, even with that chair being turned over....like LE walked all around the elephant in the room.

Puzzler~

Thanks for taking the time to read, analyse and comment on the posts.

Red Blanket

I am now wondering if the purpose of the red blanket was to wrap and carry Rebecca into the room alive and fighting or out of the room dead. It may have also been used as a makeshift tarp to protect carpeting. It doesn't seem to fit with a suicide scenario so it should have been tested for DNA and rope shavings.

I'm also wondering if Rebecca was taped and strangled in the wicker chair and it tipped backwards afterward and fell on the floor. She could have been left in that position for a couple of hours until rigor mortis set in.

A strong person could have easily untapped the legs and turned the chair over to spill her out onto the red blanket. They could have turned her on her stomach and tied her neck, arms and legs while she was on the blanket. If the rope was cut on the blanket then that would explain why no shavings were found on the rug.

In the evidence photos it is shown looking crumpled and discarded next to the overturned white wicker chair. I believe the red blanket was there for a reason and may contain crucial evidence. What happened to the red blanket? Afro

I have long thought that RZ was taped to the wicker chair...and felt that LE should have definately taken that chair and the red blanket for testing. I just have never been able to understand why they didn't and why they stated there were no signs - when that chair was overturned.

I see your point about how the blanket could have been used, too. I've always considered that RZ was put in that chair and strangled and sat there for a while before the hanging was decided.

That chair and blanket were not taken as evidence, so those two items were not tested.
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Lash on Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:17 am

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Lash wrote:

In my opinion this person knew exactly what they were doing. I don't think the hoisting calculation was even needed. It appears to me the precision, detail and holding method is from someone well experienced. I don't mean someone experienced in hanging human beings. I believe there would have been more of a disturbance on the railing and balcony floor if more calculations were needed. Just as many of us speculated would be if this was a suicide. Rebecca would have had to calculate and cause more of a disturbance on the balcony.

Was she hog tied? If so, how did this binding change? In my opinion it is feasible the knotting slipped or simply did not hold. There became a point she was no longer hog tied. Could this explain why there was no booting, because her legs had not been hanging vertical the entire time?

If she was no longer hogtied then her legs would have been hanging down and there would have been booting. No?
Afro

I think you misunderstood. I believe it is feasible Rebecca WAS hanging in a hog tied position for a period of time. Possibly hours before the binding could no longer hold and slipped. Once the binding changed she would have been hanging vertically. A possible explanation to the absence of booting.

I speculate on the theory Rebecca was hog tied because the excess rope she allegedly continued to hold in her hands after she somersaulted over the balcony and vertically dropped to her death. In my opinion this has always left open the possibility she was hog tied. Did the excess rope serve a purpose just as the extra knot?

I personally don't believe the position of Rebecca's bent legs and knees are a result of being hog tied. I consider it a possibility for the absence of any booting as explained above. I have no medical experience. I have read many opinions on this case and similar cases. It is my understanding that full Rigor Mortis had not had time to set in. Rigor was found in her jaw when the paramedics arrived. When Rebecca was laying on the ground for 12 plus hours, she was in a supine position with her arms tied behind her back and legs bound. It would be difficult for her body to lay flat and her body would likely roll to one side. It is possible since she was not in full rigor her bound legs if not straightened could cause the knees to bend and open at the knees. In my opinion it is also feasible when Adam cut Rebecca down he may have carried her by scooping her in his arms. Since Rebecca was not in full Rigor this would have bent Rebecca's legs at her knees. A position they remained in for 12 hours plus as full Rigor set in. In my opinion the two combined could logically explain the position of Rebecca's bent legs and knees.
avatar
Lash

Posts : 1583
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:19 pm

Lash wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

If she was no longer hogtied then her legs would have been hanging down and there would have been booting. No?
Afro

I think you misunderstood. I believe it is feasible Rebecca WAS hanging in a hog tied position for a period of time. Possibly hours before the binding could no longer hold and slipped. Once the binding changed she would have been hanging vertically. A possible explanation to the absence of booting.

I speculate on the theory Rebecca was hog tied because the excess rope she allegedly continued to hold in her hands after she somersaulted over the balcony and vertically dropped to her death. In my opinion this has always left open the possibility she was hog tied. Did the excess rope serve a purpose just as the extra knot?

I personally don't believe the position of Rebecca's bent legs and knees are a result of being hog tied. I consider it a possibility for the absence of any booting as explained above. I have no medical experience. I have read many opinions on this case and similar cases. It is my understanding that full Rigor Mortis had not had time to set in. Rigor was found in her jaw when the paramedics arrived. When Rebecca was laying on the ground for 12 plus hours, she was in a supine position with her arms tied behind her back and legs bound. It would be difficult for her body to lay flat and her body would likely roll to one side. It is possible since she was not in full rigor her bound legs if not straightened could cause the knees to bend and open at the knees. In my opinion it is also feasible when Adam cut Rebecca down he may have carried her by scooping her in his arms. Since Rebecca was not in full Rigor this would have bent Rebecca's legs at her knees. A position they remained in for 12 hours plus as full Rigor set in. In my opinion the two combined could logically explain the position of Rebecca's bent legs and knees.

Hi Lash!

I think Rebecca having spent time being bound in a hog tie is a very viable speculation.

It could be the explanation for the additional length of rope, it could resonate with some observations of her condition cited in her AR, and in regard to the behavioral dimension to the crime it is consistent and could have served as a means of torture.

I do not believe that Rebecca spent a long period of time hanging in a feet first vertical position.

As many of us have noted her we feel this is a homicide and displays many characteristics of vindictiveness, anger with a motive of revenge I think it is very feasible that while Rebecca was conscious that she was subjected to experiences similar to paralysis, suffocation, and dropping/suspension.

I wonder if one were to conceptually hog tie Rebecca, in one of the more typical usages , and then re-examine the location of paint strokes, dirt, or abrasions to her back, etc. if their placement could corroborate another stringent binding scenario.

View:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogtie_bondage#section_4
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Lash on Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:20 pm

Puzzler wrote:
Wig-o-matic wrote:

Puzzler~

Thanks for taking the time to read, analyse and comment on the posts.

Red Blanket

I am now wondering if the purpose of the red blanket was to wrap and carry Rebecca into the room alive and fighting or out of the room dead. It may have also been used as a makeshift tarp to protect carpeting. It doesn't seem to fit with a suicide scenario so it should have been tested for DNA and rope shavings.

I'm also wondering if Rebecca was taped and strangled in the wicker chair and it tipped backwards afterward and fell on the floor. She could have been left in that position for a couple of hours until rigor mortis set in.

A strong person could have easily untapped the legs and turned the chair over to spill her out onto the red blanket. They could have turned her on her stomach and tied her neck, arms and legs while she was on the blanket. If the rope was cut on the blanket then that would explain why no shavings were found on the rug.

In the evidence photos it is shown looking crumpled and discarded next to the overturned white wicker chair. I believe the red blanket was there for a reason and may contain crucial evidence. What happened to the red blanket? Afro

I have long thought that RZ was taped to the wicker chair...and felt that LE should have definately taken that chair and the red blanket for testing. I just have never been able to understand why they didn't and why they stated there were no signs - when that chair was overturned.

I see your point about how the blanket could have been used, too. I've always considered that RZ was put in that chair and strangled and sat there for a while before the hanging was decided.

That chair and blanket were not taken as evidence, so those two items were not tested.

I believe it is possible Rebecca was nude and her legs taped to the wicker chair. In my opinion a long segment of tape could have been wrapped around the legs of the chair to restrain Rebecca. This would allow for only small portions of the tape to have actually touched Rebecca's legs. Unfortunately, we will never know because the overturned chair at the scene that showed no signs *cough* of a struggle was never forensically tested.

I think it is feasible to speculate the wounds on Rebecca's back may have been caused from her nude body being pressed against the hard wood chair. If we postulate that Rebecca was strangled while in the chair the pressure of her body against the wood while struggling would have been even greater. In my opinion again creating small wounds to her back and arms. Unfortunately, once again we will never know because the overturned chair at the scene that showed no signs *cough* of a struggle was never forensically tested. Unfortunately, it was just assumed to be the trees fault.
avatar
Lash

Posts : 1583
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Puzzler on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:23 pm

The autopsy report says the tape residue was on the lateral distal right lower leg - 3 horizontal markings:

that does sound to me like the tape was wrapped around and around and that the residue was left on the portion of the leg that put the most pressure on the leg. The majority of the rest of the leg wouldn't even have come in contact with the tape it if were wrapped around the leg of the wicker chair.
avatar
Puzzler

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2012-05-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by glazier on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:24 pm

This may be a dumb question, but why doesn't Anne Bremer
file a Wrongful Death Lawsuit in this case?
Surely if it's a such a slam-dunk case of Murder as many
believe, it would be an easy victory. I imagine her reputation in the Legal community would soar not to mention the enormous Financial windfall for all involved.
Plus obviously Closure for the Families involved.

Is there something standing in the way of this, or maybe
other recourses must be exhausted first, such as coroner's
inquest?

glazier

Posts : 147
Join date : 2012-06-23
Mood : Frying Pan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:32 pm

glazier wrote:This may be a dumb question, but why doesn't Anne Bremer
file a Wrongful Death Lawsuit in this case?
Surely if it's a such a slam-dunk case of Murder as many
believe, it would be an easy victory. I imagine her reputation in the Legal community would soar not to mention the enormous Financial windfall for all involved.
Plus obviously Closure for the Families involved.

Is there something standing in the way of this, or maybe
other recourses must be exhausted first, such as coroner's
inquest?

Who would be the defendant?

Right now, there's no one to file against.
It's a suicide.
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Lash on Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:34 pm

The tape residue?

Band aid? Some of the residue could be the size of a band aid. Possible cuts from cleaning up the glass from the chandelier? However, the AR does not mention any healed or healing cuts within the tape residue. In my opinion just say NO to band aids.

The AR did not mention any transferred trace evidence? Rebecca allegedly had just showered. Since the tape residue did not wash off in the shower, how did the residue itself remain so clean and sticky? If Rebecca tied the rope to the bed, wouldn't she have likely bent down on her knees? Again, no mention in the AR of any findings of carpet fibers, red rope fibers, blood, black paint, human, dog or cat hair found on the "areas of sticky" tape residue.

On the anterolateral mid left shin there is a 1 x 5/8 inch gray piece of material and two smaller pieces just distal to it, measuring 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch (Comment:appears similar to tape residue). On the lateral distal right lower leg there is 1-1/4 x 5/8 inch area consisting of three horizontal oriented, parallel, somewhat evenly spaced, areas of sticky, tan-gray apparent tape residue. They are situated between 3/16 and 5/16 inch apart. 
avatar
Lash

Posts : 1583
Join date : 2012-05-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:51 pm

Lash wrote:The tape residue?

Band aid? Some of the residue could be the size of a band aid. Possible cuts from cleaning up the glass from the chandelier? However, the AR does not mention any healed or healing cuts within the tape residue. In my opinion just say NO to band aids.

The AR did not mention any transferred trace evidence? Rebecca allegedly had just showered. Since the tape residue did not wash off in the shower, how did the residue itself remain so clean and sticky? If Rebecca tied the rope to the bed, wouldn't she have likely bent down on her knees? Again, no mention in the AR of any findings of carpet fibers, red rope fibers, blood, black paint, human, dog or cat hair found on the "areas of sticky" tape residue.

On the anterolateral mid left shin there is a 1 x 5/8 inch gray piece of material and two smaller pieces just distal to it, measuring 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch (Comment:appears similar to tape residue). On the lateral distal right lower leg there is 1-1/4 x 5/8 inch area consisting of three horizontal oriented, parallel, somewhat evenly spaced, areas of sticky, tan-gray apparent tape residue. They are situated between 3/16 and 5/16 inch apart. 

Say NO to leg waxing?
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Tamta on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:06 pm

Tape shopping anyone?

Scroll down to Shop by Category at bottom of page.

http://www.findtape.com/sitemap55/specialty-duct-tape-hazard-camouflage-low-gloss-metalized-duct-tape-sitemap.aspx
avatar
Tamta

Posts : 2065
Join date : 2012-05-11
Mood : Eyebrow

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11 #2

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 21 1, 2, 3 ... 11 ... 21  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum