George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:16 pm

DebFrmHell wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:

As per the arrest affidavit, the criminal action began at the entrance of Retreat View Circle when Zimmerman initiated the 911 call, profiled Trayvon as a criminal, got out of his car and followed him when he started to run. The audio and the transcript of that call was used by the prosecution to show probable cause for the arrest warrant.

Against the police dispatcher's advice, instead of waiting in his car for the police to arrive, Zimmerman went to look for Martin. Trayvon was fatally shot 70 yards from the house where he was staying, and approximately 50 yards from the 'T'.

The 'T' is a crucial point of reference, not just because the crime took place within that perimeter, but because it is very difficult for Zimmerman to explain why he ended up there. He has offered several versions as to why he went behind Twin Trees into to the backyard area between the town houses where he has claimed was attacked by Martin and ended up killing him.

Getting out of his truck is not illegal. Following the path that TM took is not illegal. In the NEN, he admits to following and say OK after the Dispatcher's request. The wind noise stops after the 2:38ish mark. He had no idea where TM was and wouldn't give out his full address because of it.

The "depraved mind" is what the state is using, in part, to get that Murder 2 charge. I don't know that they can prove that. I think they were relying on the DOJ or The FBI for help in that matter and that came back negative. IMO, he was overcharged and I think there are political ramifications for that. The State knew that manslaughter was be a lesser included charge in jury instructions.

Even if the SYG is a fail, and frankly I think it will be*, there are a lot of pluses to going through it. Testimony from experts and witnesses will be locked in. And I think that even if it goes to trial, SYG can be included in the jury instructions, also, along with self-defense.

*I don't think any judge that wants to continue being a judge would let GZ walk on the SYG. Those are elected positions. Lester, or whoever, will "kick that can" to a jury.

Hummmm. I wonder what he has to say Monday. Maybe it will have something to do with the evidence that was "accidentally" released last week.


If O'Mara request a Stand Your Ground hearing, Zimmerman gets two bites at the apple, if the motion for immunity from prosecution is denied, the case will most likely go to trial (after appeals are resolved), then he can assert self defense to justify the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

I think the defense has to agree to a lesser included charge on the jury instructions, such as manslaughter. Some times defense lawyers want to roll the dice and go for "all or nothing" if they believe that there is not enough evidence to convict their clients of the charge in the indictment.

I also believe that the Judge won't dismiss the second degree murder charge.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:36 pm

Tamta wrote:
DebFrmHell wrote:

Getting out of his truck is not illegal. Following the path that TM took is not illegal. In the NEN, he admits to following and say OK after the Dispatcher's request. The wind noise stops after the 2:38ish mark. He had no idea where TM was and wouldn't give out his full address because of it.

The "depraved mind" is what the state is using, in part, to get that Murder 2 charge. I don't know that they can prove that. I think they were relying on the DOJ or The FBI for help in that matter and that came back negative. IMO, he was overcharged and I think there are political ramifications for that. The State knew that manslaughter was be a lesser included charge in jury instructions.

Even if the SYG is a fail, and frankly I think it will be*, there are a lot of pluses to going through it. Testimony from experts and witnesses will be locked in. And I think that even if it goes to trial, SYG can be included in the jury instructions, also, along with self-defense.

*I don't think any judge that wants to continue being a judge would let GZ walk on the SYG. Those are elected positions. Lester, or whoever, will "kick that can" to a jury.

Hummmm. I wonder what he has to say Monday. Maybe it will have something to do with the evidence that was "accidentally" released last week.

BBM.

Fact.

Also i would expect in arguing if Zimmerman was in reasonable, legal fear to justify not retreating, the moments most contemporaneous to the physical struggle between Trayvon and Zimmerman will be the focus of SYG arguments.






Those actions are certainly not illegal but when they led to someone's death, they can take a totally different context and can lead to a different conclusion. Zimmerman has claimed that the death of Trayvon Martin was justifiable homicide, and that Trayvon was the aggressor. The actions taken by Zimmerman on the night of the shooting seem to prove otherwise, and that's precisely the reason why he was charged with second degree murder.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:24 am

Anybody catch glimpses anywhere of the leaked docs mentioned on Friday? Apparently prosecution was submitting multiple docs and some unintentional inclusions were made which included GZ's school records and photo of TM's body.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/justice/florida-trayvon-accidental-release/index.html?hpt=ju_c2
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:33 am

Stolat wrote:Anybody catch glimpses anywhere of the leaked docs mentioned on Friday? Apparently prosecution was submitting multiple docs and some unintentional inclusions were made which included GZ's school records and photo of TM's body.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/justice/florida-trayvon-accidental-release/index.html?hpt=ju_c2
IIRC, notices were sent IMMEDIATELY to ALL media to NOT release the two docs the prosecution had accidentally released.

I am almost amused: Why protect GZ' school records AND release/share Trayvon's?
Double standard here?

I don't think Trayvon's records are important to Trayvon's death; there is NO connection and GZ had NO prior knowledge of Trayvon's school records PRIOR to Trayvon's death. If, however, it is believed to be important to show some sort of frame of mind Trayvon was in, THEN surely it would be just as important to release/share GZ' school records.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Tamta on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:37 pm

ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE FILES PETITION FOR WRIT OF PROHIBITION ON 13 AUGUST 2012.

On July 13, the defense team filed a Verified Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge. Judge Lester responded on August 1 by issuing an Order Dismissing Defendant's Verified Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge on the basis that it was legally insufficient. Today the defense team will file a Petition for Writ of Prohibition with the 5th District Court of Appeal.

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/43-zimmerman-defense-files-petition-for-writ-of-prohibition
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Tamta on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:40 pm

George Zimmerman's lawyer to appeal judge's decision to stay on case

The appeal will be reviewed by a panel of judges, said Joanne Simmons, a spokeswoman for the Fifth District Court of Appeal in Daytona Beach. That panel could then ask the state to respond, usually within 20 days, then allow O'Mara to respond, something that usually adds 10 more days.

The court then would make a ruling, although it's not clear when. There is no timeline, Simmons said.

"There's no way to predict," she said.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-press-conference-20120813_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Tamta on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:48 pm

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by ClaireUncensored on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:30 pm

Stolat wrote:Anybody catch glimpses anywhere of the leaked docs mentioned on Friday? Apparently prosecution was submitting multiple docs and some unintentional inclusions were made which included GZ's school records and photo of TM's body.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/justice/florida-trayvon-accidental-release/index.html?hpt=ju_c2
The 76-page doc dump in the RC/TM library (08.09.2012) includes some of GZ's school records and a very grainy pic of what could be TM's body. Well, now we know it is for sure since they made such a big deal out of it. OTOH, the school records are very revealing IMO (both financial and GPA, or just plain lazy-azz who can't manage to get anything done on time?) ~~C

Nice to see your post, Stolat. Specially missed your avatar
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:46 pm

Zimmerman lawyer pursuing traditional self-defense

By KYLE HIGHTOWER
Associated Press
Published: Aug 13, 2012 at 6:05 PM PDT

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — The attorney for the former neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin said Monday he believes that the facts that will be argued in the case fall more under traditional self-defense.

Mark O'Mara, who is defending George Zimmerman against a second-degree murder charge in the fatal February shooting, said looking at the case through traditional self-defense circumstances is appropriate because the facts suggest his client couldn't retreat from a beating he was receiving from Martin.

Zimmerman's attorneys said last week that they would use Florida's "stand your ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force — rather than retreat — if they believe their lives are in danger.

"The facts don't seem to support a 'stand your ground' defense," O'Mara said.

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/national/Zimmerman-lawyer-pursuing-traditional-self-defense-166057926.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:50 pm

Zimmerman defense lawyers won't argue 'stand-your-ground' in Florida shooting case

Published August 13, 2012
Associated Press

ORLANDO, Florida – The attorney for the man who shot and killed unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin said Monday he'll seek to get the case dismissed using a traditional self-defense argument and not the state's "stand your ground" statute.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/13/zimmerman-defense-lawyers-wont-argue-tand-your-ground-in-florida-shooting-case/
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:49 am

George Zimmerman's lawyer appeals to remove judge

Mark O'Mara, defense attorney for George Zimmerman, announces an appeal to remove Judge Kenneth Lester from the case - Monday, Aug. 13, 2012.

By Bakari Savage, Reporter
Last Updated: Monday, August 13, 2012 @ 08:07PM

~Snipped~

Our legal analyst, Central Florida attorney Joy Ragan, said O'Mara does not think Zimmerman can get a fair trial under Lester, because his client has damaged credibility.

"That's why Mr. O'Mara is going to these extraordinary measures to get the judge off the case," said Ragan. "I think that he really believes that the 'Stand Your Ground' motion is damaged by what his client has done."

That damage, according to Ragan, happened when Zimmerman and his wife, Shellie, did not fully disclose how much money they had available during Zimmerman's initial bond hearing.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/8/13/zimmerman_appeal_to_.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:29 am

George Zimmerman's Lawyer: 'Stand Your Ground' Doesn't Apply

By Margaret Hartmann

Today at 12:05 AM | August 14, 2012

The killing of Trayvon Martin provoked a national debate on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, but on Monday George Zimmerman's lawyer, Mark O'Mara, said, "The facts don't seem to support a 'Stand Your Ground' defense." O'Mara now claims that the incident actually is actually just a basic self-defense case, since Zimmerman didn't have the option to retreat. "People look at 'stand your ground' and immediately think somebody's standing there with deadly force — be it a gun or a weapon — and having the opportunity to back up but not having the need to under the statute," said O'Mara. "I think the evidence in this case suggests that my client was reacting to having his nose broken and reacted to that by screaming out for help." Though, that doesn't mean O'Mara is withdrawing his request for a "Stand Your Ground" hearing.

Read more:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/08/zimmerman-team-stand-your-ground-doesnt-apply.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:07 am

Not sure if this has been shared so forgive me if it is a dup.

Zimmerman defense lawyers won't argue 'stand-your-ground' in Florida shooting case
Published August 13, 2012Associated Press

" Zimmerman's attorneys had said last week that they would use Florida's controverial (sic) "stand your ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force -- rather than retreat -- if they believe their lives are in danger.

"The facts don't seem to support a `stand your ground' defense," O'Mara said."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/13/zimmerman-defense-lawyers-wont-argue-tand-your-ground-in-florida-shooting-case/
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:10 am

Is there a link to the 76 page doc dump being referenced?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Justice4all on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:07 pm

Freckles wrote:Is there a link to the 76 page doc dump being referenced?
There was a link Freckles, but it looks like Click Orlando edited it down to 14 pages to removed the docs that were unintentionally released.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/16038334/data/2/-/15lgmq9z/-/Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:58 pm

George Zimmerman running out of money for defense

By Marisol Bello, USA TODAY
Updated 1d ago (August 13, 2012)

The neighborhood watch volunteer who got worldwide attention and threats for fatally shooting an unarmed teen is living as a recluse, can go outside only in disguise and is running out of money for his defense, his attorney says.

The fund that George Zimmerman created online after his arrest in April on charges that he killed Trayvon Martin has fallen from $250,000 to $70,000, lawyer Mark O'Mara told USA TODAY.

Read more:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-08-14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-nearly-broke/57059728/1
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:43 am

Justice4all wrote:
Freckles wrote:Is there a link to the 76 page doc dump being referenced?
There was a link Freckles, but it looks like Click Orlando edited it down to 14 pages to removed the docs that were unintentionally released.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/16038334/data/2/-/15lgmq9z/-/Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/16038334/data/2/-/15lgmq9z/-/Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

I just checked and it is all still there. Even the photo of TM. You would think they would have pulled that one at least seeing as the family had the good grace to thank the media for not using it.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Justice4all on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:48 am

Are you still getting 76 pages Deb? I'm only getting 14 pages when I click the link and I saw a photo of the back of GZ's head. There is a photo on the page after, but I can't tell what it is and I don't see any school records.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:15 am

DebFrmHell wrote:
Justice4all wrote:
There was a link Freckles, but it looks like Click Orlando edited it down to 14 pages to removed the docs that were unintentionally released.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/16038334/data/2/-/15lgmq9z/-/Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/16038334/data/2/-/15lgmq9z/-/Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

I just checked and it is all still there. Even the photo of TM. You would think they would have pulled that one at least seeing as the family had the good grace to thank the media for not using it.

This has 14 pages.

Of interest, p. 10: GZ states he was attacked first by ATF; and he then states his father's occupation and that of his mother, IIRC, they are not (yet) on trial. Nor do their occupations have anything to do with his application.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by colsnipe on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:29 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:George Zimmerman running out of money for defense

By Marisol Bello, USA TODAY
Updated 1d ago (August 13, 2012)

The neighborhood watch volunteer who got worldwide attention and threats for fatally shooting an unarmed teen is living as a recluse, can go outside only in disguise and is running out of money for his defense, his attorney says.

The fund that George Zimmerman created online after his arrest in April on charges that he killed Trayvon Martin has fallen from $250,000 to $70,000, lawyer Mark O'Mara told USA TODAY.

Read more:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-08-14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-nearly-broke/57059728/1

just a thought and probably already asked...where did the money go, and who has control of the money in the defense fund? and i thought that the defense of GZ was a pro bono case. If i missed it, oh well.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:31 am

Welcome, colsnipe!

You are asking questions we have all wondered about. That is a lot of money to go poof!



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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:50 am

ClaireUncensored wrote:
Stolat wrote:Anybody catch glimpses anywhere of the leaked docs mentioned on Friday? Apparently prosecution was submitting multiple docs and some unintentional inclusions were made which included GZ's school records and photo of TM's body.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/justice/florida-trayvon-accidental-release/index.html?hpt=ju_c2
The 76-page doc dump in the RC/TM library (08.09.2012) includes some of GZ's school records and a very grainy pic of what could be TM's body. Well, now we know it is for sure since they made such a big deal out of it. OTOH, the school records are very revealing IMO (both financial and GPA, or just plain lazy-azz who can't manage to get anything done on time?) ~~C

Nice to see your post, Stolat. Specially missed your avatar

Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:51 am

Freckles wrote:Welcome, colsnipe!

You are asking questions we have all wondered about. That is a lot of money to go poof!


that is something i used to say to my ex all the time ha!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by jacct on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:42 pm

Stolat wrote:
Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?

Stolat,

I saved a copy. Here's the link to the full 76 page document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:59 pm

Justice4all wrote:Are you still getting 76 pages Deb? I'm only getting 14 pages when I click the link and I saw a photo of the back of GZ's head. There is a photo on the page after, but I can't tell what it is and I don't see any school records.

I just checked and it is pushing 2pm. It was all there. I don't understand why you are getting only 14 pages. I bookmarked mine right after the release so that may be the difference. Did you bookmark yours after the SAO asked MSM not to release the information? Highlight the bottom of the link and see how many pages are listed. If you are showing more than 14, type in a number (example: 52) and see if you get anything else.

There is a legal issue with the release of the school records, too, IIRC. It has to do with some privacy act. I will have to look to see what was being cited to confirm. I do think that OS should have pulled that one picture of TM but I guess it is hard to unring a bell that you just fought for months to get rung...

Sunshine Laws. I like that law because I am nosy and I want to read everything so my opinion is totally self-serving. In general though, I really think there should be some constraints or morality involved in what is released to the general public.

The State opened up the can of worms and I find it very hard to believe that it was accidental. Things just don't attach accidentally to emails. People attach things to emails. People check who they are sending the emails to... it just defies logic, IMO.

((The strange photo you are referring to is the larger flashlight. IMO, if I didn't know what it was already I would probably not guessed that. Its like a Rorschach Test for the "too" involved! LOL!))
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by ClaireUncensored on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:23 pm

jacct wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?

Stolat,

I saved a copy. Here's the link to the full 76 page document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489
Thank goodness!! I bookmarked it, read it, trashed it. I just don't like clutter, but I better start getting used to folders again. And besides, I thought the doc dump would stay intact in the RC library. Now just how does that work anyway?

You may laugh at me NOW. Laughing ~~C
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:56 pm

jacct wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?

Stolat,

I saved a copy. Here's the link to the full 76 page document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489

Thank you, thank you! This one appears to be in tact without the redactions!!! Very Happy
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:16 am

DebFrmHell wrote:
Justice4all wrote:Are you still getting 76 pages Deb? I'm only getting 14 pages when I click the link and I saw a photo of the back of GZ's head. There is a photo on the page after, but I can't tell what it is and I don't see any school records.

I just checked and it is pushing 2pm. It was all there. I don't understand why you are getting only 14 pages. I bookmarked mine right after the release so that may be the difference. Did you bookmark yours after the SAO asked MSM not to release the information? Highlight the bottom of the link and see how many pages are listed. If you are showing more than 14, type in a number (example: 52) and see if you get anything else.

There is a legal issue with the release of the school records, too, IIRC. It has to do with some privacy act. I will have to look to see what was being cited to confirm. I do think that OS should have pulled that one picture of TM but I guess it is hard to unring a bell that you just fought for months to get rung...

Sunshine Laws. I like that law because I am nosy and I want to read everything so my opinion is totally self-serving. In general though, I really think there should be some constraints or morality involved in what is released to the general public.

The State opened up the can of worms and I find it very hard to believe that it was accidental. Things just don't attach accidentally to emails. People attach things to emails. People check who they are sending the emails to... it just defies logic, IMO.

((The strange photo you are referring to is the larger flashlight. IMO, if I didn't know what it was already I would probably not guessed that. Its like a Rorschach Test for the "too" involved! LOL!))

My guess Deb, is that when you downloaded the full doc, an image of the full document was stored in your cache on your computer. I would bet if you went to the link from a different computer you wouldn't be able to see full doc either. For those of us visiting the link for the first time (same link, same destination) we wouldn't have the full doc stored to cache already, so we'd only see what they now have out there. My best techy-geeky guess.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:20 am

jacct wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?

Stolat,

I saved a copy. Here's the link to the full 76 page document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489

Wow!! Thank you so much!! This link seems to have it all there.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by justanopinion on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:08 am

I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:33 pm

justanopinion wrote:I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]

round pebbles on the sidewalk maybe? that was my first thought. The other thought I had judging from the upside down "L" shape of the lower right laceration was that it appears that spot could have come into contact with the corner of the sidewalk slab. You know how sidewalk paths are made up of individual square slabs with small creases between each one? This area where a very definitive "L" shape forms looks like that natural outraised bump on his skull came in contact with the corner of one of the slabs and it left an impression there. who knows...
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by justanopinion on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:49 pm

Stolat wrote:
justanopinion wrote:I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]

round pebbles on the sidewalk maybe? that was my first thought. The other thought I had judging from the upside down "L" shape of the lower right laceration was that it appears that spot could have come into contact with the corner of the sidewalk slab. You know how sidewalk paths are made up of individual square slabs with small creases between each one? This area where a very definitive "L" shape forms looks like that natural outraised bump on his skull came in contact with the corner of one of the slabs and it left an impression there. who knows...


Good to see you here Stolat... I needed objectivity... Laughing the other blog was suggesting that it was a gun lash from his KelTec and I was starting to see it! Very Happy
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:07 pm

justanopinion wrote:
Stolat wrote:

round pebbles on the sidewalk maybe? that was my first thought. The other thought I had judging from the upside down "L" shape of the lower right laceration was that it appears that spot could have come into contact with the corner of the sidewalk slab. You know how sidewalk paths are made up of individual square slabs with small creases between each one? This area where a very definitive "L" shape forms looks like that natural outraised bump on his skull came in contact with the corner of one of the slabs and it left an impression there. who knows...


Good to see you here Stolat... I needed objectivity... Laughing the other blog was suggesting that it was a gun lash from his KelTec and I was starting to see it! Very Happy

hmm.. intersting. Not exactly sure I know what that means(?)
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by justanopinion on Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:12 pm

The other blog was saying that the area above the vertical laceration looked similar in shape to the barrel of the handgun GZ was carrying in eventually used. They were suggesting that the witness that saw the person in a white shirt on the bottom... may have hit GZ with GZ's gun after the fact in order to give GZ a credible story.. No and I let the more rational side of me slip away and entertained that theory... glad there are sane people here!!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by ClaireUncensored on Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:56 pm

justanopinion wrote:I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]
When you see the video of GZ walking through the police station the evening of (right?), I don't remember seeing blood all over his clothes. I remember reading along the way that someone (an EMT?) took a look at his head (maybe wiped it off), someone took a picture, probably more than one person. I'm sure his wife and friend/adviser (can't remember his name) took some, too. But I agree, Just, the bruising does appear to be rounded-off or something. Could be make-up, angle of camera, shadow, or just something we "want" to see. But I do see what you explained above.

The only thing I have to compare it to is when my mom had her first TIA and fell back (as in a leg locked position), hit her head on a sidewalk. There was so much blood on sidewalk (expected from a head injury), and blood all over her clothes and my dad's pants. It looked nothing like GZ's head, though -- just one deep gouge sort of oblong shaped, about 12-15 staples, head shaved in that area (just the underneath hair, though, which was nice). A few days later (maybe one-two?) about a baseball-size bruise appeared. To be honest, at the time we were more worried about the TIA than the hole in her head. (The hole was healing well and just hurt a lot; surprisingly no head injury except the gouge.)

I just can't picture how a sidewalk would make those injuries on the back of his head -- certainly not someone slamming his head on the sidewalk. Remember, though, GZ declined transport the evening of incident, went to his own PCP the next day, and they didn't even order any further testing. That's huge for me. In fact, I doubt they were the ones who put the finger band-aids on his head. Who does that? At least use steri-strips. ~~C Shocked
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Tamta on Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:00 pm

Stolat wrote:
justanopinion wrote:I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]

round pebbles on the sidewalk maybe? that was my first thought. The other thought I had judging from the upside down "L" shape of the lower right laceration was that it appears that spot could have come into contact with the corner of the sidewalk slab. You know how sidewalk paths are made up of individual square slabs with small creases between each one? This area where a very definitive "L" shape forms looks like that natural outraised bump on his skull came in contact with the corner of one of the slabs and it left an impression there. who knows...

Hi guys.

Those wounds clearly look like moving contact with rough surface.
I would imagine at one point GZ could have been trying to pivot his head off of the concrete and/or also turn his face away from Trayvon.

Was the tactical flashlight tested and results released? Not that I know of!

If the gun was contemporaneous with the beginning of the physical confrontation, I doubt those abrasions on the back of GZ's head would have been there, JMO!


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by ClaireUncensored on Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:29 pm

jacct wrote:
Stolat wrote:
Thanks Claire -- it seems the link in the doc library points to a site that now only exposes 14 pages instead of 76. Darn -- anybody save a copy of his school records?

Stolat,

I saved a copy. Here's the link to the full 76 page document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489
jacct -- Thank you so very much! Now I have re-bookmarked it in a brand new folder so I can re-read it later. I found the school records really interesting; couldn't decide if GZ was not applying himself (lazy) or just couldn't understand the assignments. Maybe a little of each. He seems like kind of guy that was used to getting his way (reading between the lines of the adviser notes -- appears like GZ told adviser one thing then another).

Oh! Oh! Oh! Somewhere at the very beginning of the school records (have to find it later), there's one line at the beginning of a page where he answered a question "pre-law" Shocked then all the rest are "criminal justice". That right there just made me giggle.~~C

praise
Again, thanks jacct!!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by DebFrmHell on Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:50 pm

justanopinion wrote:I was looking at the pictures from another blog of the back of GZ's head... they are colour pictures and the bruising/redness near the lacerations are very strange in shape.. appear rounded in areas.. I am not sure whether they have been photoshopped... does anyone see something other than a concrete sidewalk that could have caused this pattern??

[img][/img]

That is one of the photos from the evidence file. It is not photoshopped. One of the things to keep in mind is that GZ stated that when he got punched in the nose he fell into the grass. Those injuries didn't come from that. Those are the lacerations and abrasions that came later up by John's patio. He said that his head was being banged against the sidewalk and John's statement says that they moved from the grass to the sidewalk.

I had to LOL on the witness wacking GZ on the head with his gun. That is totally a new one on me! I know I would hold still for that.

((When I cracked my head open on a tile floor I had a much bigger laceration but I had the STAR at one end. I went straight backwards with my head tilted to the left.))
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Justice4all on Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:24 pm

Experts: Trayvon Martin's heart kept pumping after shooting

By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
5:40 p.m. EST, August 17, 2012

~Snipped~

What killed the Miami Gardens teenager was blood loss, massive internal bleeding, said Anderson and Dr. William L. Manion, a board certified anatomical, clinical and forensic pathologist and lawyer in Mt. Holly, N.J.

At 7:17 p.m. on Feb. 26, the bullet that killed Trayvon entered his chest square-on, just to the left of his breastbone, according to his autopsy. It punched a hole in his right ventricle, the lower right chamber of the heart, and broke into three pieces.

The bullet's lead core – the bulkiest part – was found just behind his heart, still inside the pericardium, the sac that contains that organ. Two other fragments were found next to his right lung, which had been perforated and collapsed, the report said.

When Sanford firefighters arrived 10 minutes later, at 7:27 p.m., firefighter Stacey Livingston checked him over.

During an interview March 24 with agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Livingston said: "He had a small bullet hole in his chest area that wasn't even bleeding,"

Not on the outside.

Inside, however, his chest cavity had filled with 2,300 milliliters of blood, according to the autopsy. That's about one-third of a healthy person's total blood volume, Anderson said.

Read more: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by DebFrmHell on Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:43 am

Justice4all wrote:Experts: Trayvon Martin's heart kept pumping after shooting

By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
5:40 p.m. EST, August 17, 2012

~Snipped~

What killed the Miami Gardens teenager was blood loss, massive internal bleeding, said Anderson and Dr. William L. Manion, a board certified anatomical, clinical and forensic pathologist and lawyer in Mt. Holly, N.J.

At 7:17 p.m. on Feb. 26, the bullet that killed Trayvon entered his chest square-on, just to the left of his breastbone, according to his autopsy. It punched a hole in his right ventricle, the lower right chamber of the heart, and broke into three pieces.

The bullet's lead core – the bulkiest part – was found just behind his heart, still inside the pericardium, the sac that contains that organ. Two other fragments were found next to his right lung, which had been perforated and collapsed, the report said.

When Sanford firefighters arrived 10 minutes later, at 7:27 p.m., firefighter Stacey Livingston checked him over.

During an interview March 24 with agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Livingston said: "He had a small bullet hole in his chest area that wasn't even bleeding,"

Not on the outside.

Inside, however, his chest cavity had filled with 2,300 milliliters of blood, according to the autopsy. That's about one-third of a healthy person's total blood volume, Anderson said.

Read more: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss


I would like to hear some input from KZ on the article.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:58 pm

Hearing Friday over George Zimmerman's medical records

Last Updated: Monday, August 20, 2012

SANFORD --
Attorneys in the George Zimmerman will go back to court Friday over a subpeona for records that the defense wants to keep out of the prosecution's hands.

Prosecutors filed a subpeona for records from Altamonte Family Practice in Altamonte Springs. It's not known why they want the documents.

But Zimmerman's attorneys are objecting to the move. They say the documents are privileged records and totally irrelevant to the case.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/8/20/hearing_friday_over_.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:43 pm

bob kealing @bobkealing
#Zimmerman Defense granted Friday hearing to fight subpoena of records from clinic that treated his wounds after #TrayvonMartin shooting.

https://twitter.com/bobkealing
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:15 pm

George Zimmerman fights subpoena asking for release of medical records

5:15 p.m. EST, August 20, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

SANFORD — Prosecutors want more of George Zimmerman's medical records, but he's fighting back.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara has scheduled a hearing Friday to try to stop the release.

The state is asking for Zimmerman's records from an Altamonte Springs doctor's office. O'Mara already has released some, those that show what treatment Zimmerman got the day after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin Feb. 26 in Sanford.

Read more:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-subpoena-20120820_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:18 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:George Zimmerman fights subpoena asking for release of medical records

5:15 p.m. EST, August 20, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

SANFORD — Prosecutors want more of George Zimmerman's medical records, but he's fighting back.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara has scheduled a hearing Friday to try to stop the release.

The state is asking for Zimmerman's records from an Altamonte Springs doctor's office. O'Mara already has released some, those that show what treatment Zimmerman got the day after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin Feb. 26 in Sanford.

Read more:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-subpoena-20120820_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

What do they mean "some"??? Why not ALL? I don't get it. What would you want to conceal in your medical records for a murder trial, if it's NOT related to the murder trial? If it is, then it better all be there, no??? And why fight back on it? Even if you don't have anything to hide, doesn't that only make you look like you've got something to hide?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by ClaireUncensored on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:16 am

Stolat wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:George Zimmerman fights subpoena asking for release of medical records

5:15 p.m. EST, August 20, 2012|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

SANFORD — Prosecutors want more of George Zimmerman's medical records, but he's fighting back.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara has scheduled a hearing Friday to try to stop the release.

The state is asking for Zimmerman's records from an Altamonte Springs doctor's office. O'Mara already has released some, those that show what treatment Zimmerman got the day after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin Feb. 26 in Sanford.

Read more:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-subpoena-20120820_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

What do they mean "some"??? Why not ALL? I don't get it. What would you want to conceal in your medical records for a murder trial, if it's NOT related to the murder trial? If it is, then it better all be there, no??? And why fight back on it? Even if you don't have anything to hide, doesn't that only make you look like you've got something to hide?
Maybe meds he took in the past? Counseling/therapy/referrals? If the prosecution wants ALL the med rec that would also include the insurance stuff -- dx codes, payments, non-payment of anything from GZ (possibly even sent to collection). Wonder how far back they requested? ~~C
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am

ClaireUncensored shared,

Maybe meds he took in the past? Counseling/therapy/referrals? If the prosecution wants ALL the med rec that would also include the insurance stuff -- dx codes, payments, non-payment of anything from GZ (possibly even sent to collection). Wonder how far back they requested? ~~

CU, I am just speculating, I would think that HIPPA Laws might protect GZ if they are beyond the incident of the night of Trayvon's death, I am guessing that will be MOM's argument. It's almost impossible to get any medical information on anyone for any reason. Of course,MOM should be forthcoming, imo, for any medical issues pertaining to the night of Trayvon's death, they will come out at the trial anyway.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:00 pm

art tart wrote:
ClaireUncensored shared,

Maybe meds he took in the past? Counseling/therapy/referrals? If the prosecution wants ALL the med rec that would also include the insurance stuff -- dx codes, payments, non-payment of anything from GZ (possibly even sent to collection). Wonder how far back they requested? ~~

CU, I am just speculating, I would think that HIPPA Laws might protect GZ if they are beyond the incident of the night of Trayvon's death, I am guessing that will be MOM's argument. It's almost impossible to get any medical information on anyone for any reason. Of course,MOM should be forthcoming, imo, for any medical issues pertaining to the night of Trayvon's death, they will come out at the trial anyway.

Hmm... not well versed on how airtight HIPPA is. In my very rudimentary logical understanding, f no meds were involved on night of the incident, then I would think prosecution has very little ground to stand on if they are demanding medical RX history prior to that night. However, if meds were involved, then I would think it would be very relevant and necessary to establish longevity of use, how many different RX's, overlap of RX's, etc. If you take xzy drug on a certain night, just one night of use may be completely irrelevant -- I would think one would need to establish a baseline...a benchmark of when the meds first started, how long, how many, how often, etc. to show relevant plausible behavior modification. Will be interesting.

Can't be the first time HIPPA was challenged based on this. I've read HIPPA doc's that I've signed and the "intent" for which it is designed has far less to do with protecting someone being investigated in criminal activity than for more practical purposes such as employment discrimination, etc. I think the basis on which HIPPA is intended to protect will be called to question here as whether or not it can legitimately serve as a "catch-all" security blanket. Again, .... very interesting.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Stolat on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:34 pm

art tart wrote:
ClaireUncensored shared,

Maybe meds he took in the past? Counseling/therapy/referrals? If the prosecution wants ALL the med rec that would also include the insurance stuff -- dx codes, payments, non-payment of anything from GZ (possibly even sent to collection). Wonder how far back they requested? ~~

CU, I am just speculating, I would think that HIPPA Laws might protect GZ if they are beyond the incident of the night of Trayvon's death, I am guessing that will be MOM's argument. It's almost impossible to get any medical information on anyone for any reason. Of course,MOM should be forthcoming, imo, for any medical issues pertaining to the night of Trayvon's death, they will come out at the trial anyway.

Apparently HIPPA not that ironclad....

http://privacy.med.miami.edu/glossary/xd_law_enforcement.htm

here's just a tidbit...

A covered entity may disclose protected health information (PHI) for a law enforcement purpose, to a law enforcement official, under several sets of circumstances.

A law enforcement official, is defined as "an officer or employee of any agency or authority of the United States, a State, a territory, a political subdivision of a State or territory, or an Indian tribe," who is empowered by law to:

investigate or conduct an official inquiry into a potential violation of law; or
prosecute or otherwise conduct a criminal, civil, or administrative proceeding arising from an alleged violation of law.

First, PHI may be disclosed as required by specific laws, such as those that require the reporting of certain types of wounds or injuries (e.g., gunshots), of child abuse or neglect, and so forth.

Second, PHI may be released in compliance with (and as limited by) the relevant requirements of

-a court order or court-ordered warrant;
-a subpoena or summons issued by a judicial officer;
-a grand jury subpoena; or
-an administrative request, including an administrative subpoena or summons, a civil or authorized investigative demand, or similar process authorized under law.

The information sought in such circumstances must be

-relevant and material to a legitimate law enforcement inquiry;
-specific and limited in scope to the extent reasonably practicable in light of the purpose for which the information is sought; and
-for a purpose for which de-identified information could not reasonably be used.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:09 pm

Maybe there is something in the files to go to the mental state of GZ? This could also point to why he was not accepted at the PD academy. And maybe, why he got whatever grades he earned?? (Have to wonder if at any time he was treated for addictions.)

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Post by Freckles on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:11 pm

Maybe, at some time in the past, GZ was rec medical care and requested a change of doctors/nurses due to a racial thing?

Wild guesses here.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

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