Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:53 am

Could someone snag these vids and post here?

Vanessa made a vid of her brother, Damian, after his death,
Jan. 16, 2010.

http://vimeo.com/49519860

Here is the tribute Vanessa made for her mother a year ago:

http://vimeo.com/49519859
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:07 am

I haven't been able to keep up the way I would like to. I haven't heard how or why Damian killed himself. It's obvious that him and his sister were very close. But why would he have done such a thing? Was it due to his mothers murder?

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:13 am

From 9/25/2009:

" ...Willis also pleaded guilty to federal charges and is serving 21 months in a federal prison, but was given until Oct. 15 to report to prison. However, she reportedly tried to flee to Mexico, was arrested at the Salt Lake International Airport and was immediately sent to prison. ..."

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/dr-martin-macneill-pleads-guilty-sentenced-in-state-case/article_e1be2c10-0811-5d0d-9431-b7cea06ee3c8.html
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:18 am

Gizmo711 wrote:I haven't been able to keep up the way I would like to.  I haven't heard how or why Damian killed himself.  It's obvious that him and his sister were very close.  But why would he have done such a thing? Was it due to his mothers murder?
Hi, Giz!
I don't have the info you requested. I wish I knew.
I would like to know where his father was at that time...yeah.
And then again, IF the father lay a lot of guilt trips on him... yeah.

Did you see the vid tribute made by his sister, Vanessa, that I posted at top of page?
It is awesome. He went on his mission and it shows him opening the letter, going to the airport, and then his return. Michele's love for her children shines...

In the vid Vanessa made for her mother, Michele, if I am correct, some of the vid shows her with her three adopted children at or near the orphanage. Watch the reaction of the other children... and see the love in her hands.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Gizmo711 on Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:23 pm

Freckles wrote:
Gizmo711 wrote:I haven't been able to keep up the way I would like to.  I haven't heard how or why Damian killed himself.  It's obvious that him and his sister were very close.  But why would he have done such a thing? Was it due to his mothers murder?
Hi, Giz!
I don't have the info you requested. I wish I knew.
I would like to know where his father was at that time...yeah.
And then again, IF the father lay a lot of guilt trips on him... yeah.

Did you see the vid tribute made by his sister, Vanessa, that I posted at top of page?
It is awesome. He went on his mission and it shows him opening the letter, going to the airport, and then his return. Michele's love for her children shines...

In the vid Vanessa made for her mother, Michele, if I am correct, some of the vid shows her with her three adopted children at or near the orphanage. Watch the reaction of the other children... and see the love in her hands.

Yes I looked at the video and agree that Michele was a loving mother that didn't deserve to be murdered by this creep. One of the adopted children are on the stand now and she is speaking very highly of her mother. The brother Damian seemed like he was an all right guy whom was also very loved by his mother and siblings. This creep destroyed his entire family and all for what? A Gypsy? It sickens me to no end. I hope he gets his due.

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 pm

Parents of accused killer's mistress speak out

By HLN After Dark Staff
updated 10:05 AM EDT, Wed October 30, 2013

•Prosecutors say Gypsy Willis was motive for Martin MacNeill, the Utah doctor accused of drugging and drowning his wife
•MacNeill's mistress Gypsy testified in court about the couple's relationship
•Gypsy's parents join 'HLN After Dark' to weigh in on the trial




http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/10/29/martin-macneill-murder-trial-gypsy-parents

More videos at above link.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:46 pm

Freckles wrote:Could someone snag these vids and post here?

Vanessa made a vid of her brother, Damian, after his death,
Jan. 16, 2010.

http://vimeo.com/49519860

Damian MacNeill - Memorial Video - Together We Will Live Forever from Rachel MacNeill on Vimeo.



Here is the tribute Vanessa made for her mother a year ago:

http://vimeo.com/49519859

Michele MacNeill - Memorial Video - Thula Mtwana from Rachel MacNeill on Vimeo.

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:50 pm


Notes from Oct. 30


jury is not present

Prosecutor:   Federal inmates are here from Texas; need to be referred to as Inmate 1 and 2.  All expressing grave concern about their identities getting out; some concerned about their safety; some even want to go to a different facility after testifying; inmates 3 and 4 want the same (not filmed, images not shown; referred to generically and not by name).

Defense:  news to them; judge taking under advisement; giving defense chance to think about it, since inmates not testifying today

Prosecutor:  Dawson said the new interpretation of ~0.1 doesn't change his opinion; state's opinion is not to recall him, except for rebuttal; defense still reviewing situation; not prepared to comment


Jury is now present

Vanessa MacNeill (Martin's daughter; age 32)

  • Was living in Bluffdale on April 11; she was 25; last lived with her parents in Orem, Utah
  • Has been convicted of a felony; possession of heroine (2011); presently on probation
  • Admits she's a drug addict; but a clean one
  • She was home when she found out about her mom's death; she threw the phone against the wall and broke the phone when she found out
  • Waited for a ride to go to her parent's house
  • All family members except Rachel were there; spoke to her dad; doesn't remember
  • Later got a new phone; her dad gave her her mom's phone; doesn't remember when
  • There were messages on the phone when she got it; a couple of VoiceMails; from the day her mom died (that morning, around 11, the second one); the first one was earlier; she listened to them
  • her dad left the messages; both were similar in content:  Dad was talking to her mom; he was worried, needed her to stay in bed; and to not move around; doesn't remember if dad said to mom not to go anywhere
  • She told investigators that her dad said "don't go anywhere; I'm coming home and I'm going to make you a sandwich and we'll have a nice lunch together"
  • After her mom died, she offered to help take care of the rest of the kids; made herself available; her dad said everyone needs to get back to their lives and that he was going to hire a nanny
  • She, Damian, Eileen were supposed to interview nanny applicants; only one showed up
  • ID'ed photo as Jillian Willis, aka Gypsy; she was the one that showed up; she was interviewed
  • After the interview, she called Alexis and told her not to worry; she asked if person was Gypsy; she said no, it was Jillian; she was convinced that Jillian was not someone to worry about that her dad was involved with; she was nothing like her mom


Cross:

  • Was Alexis with you during interview with Whitney?  Doesn't remember


Re-cross:

  • Dad had said there were other applicants for nanny, but they had all canceled


No jury questions

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:54 pm


Sabrina Michele MacNeill, Martin's adopted daughter


  • lives in Logan, Utah; going to Utah State Univ.
  • MacNeills adopted her from the Ukraine
  • Was first adopted at 10 yrs. old by a NYC woman (with her sister)
  • The MacNeill's later adopted her because NY woman only wanted her sister, not her; she was about 11 (4th grade; held back to learn English; later skipped 6th grade)
  • Elle (lives with Sabrina); Giselle; other adopted daughters
  • Sabrina is youngest adopted, then Elle, Giselle
  • her mom (Michele) was wonderful; what she had dreamt of
  • MM worked a lot; he was gone all the time
  • Her mom would take her to school around 7:30/8 a.m.

  • April 11 - thinks she was in 7th grade; she was at school; heard the ambulances go by; hours later, her brother's friend Chris picked them (her and Ada) up from school; took them to his house; he took her to her parent's house about an hour later
  • Knew something bad had happened; she ran into her room, emotional, crying; on the floor; dad walked in with towel over his face; pulled the towel down and said "I don't know how to tell you this, but your mom is dead"
  • ID'ed a picture of Jillian aka Gypsy
  • First met Jillian about 2-3 weeks after Michele died; dad introduced her as new nanny; living downstairs; she's a nurse
  • Jillian didn't do anything; made spaghetti once; doesn't remember her driving kids around; maybe once or twice
  • Saw Jillian interact with MM; saw her going to her dad's room and closing the door; thought that was odd
  • Jillian left the home at the same time when dad said he was going on vacation; thinks they went on vacation together a couple of times
  • She saw Michele right before she went to school that morning; Michele had just woken up; mom was sitting on couch in her room in front of the TV;  Sabrina said she had left her ballet bag at ballet and that she'd get it later; said goodbye and went to school; mom was normal physically; she was tired from having just woken up; she was fine; she did not have bandages on her face at that time


Cross:

  • Elle was present when dad told her her mom was dead; dad seemed kind of upset; might have told investigator he was crying; she doesn't remember if he was crying or not; in previous testimony, she said he was crying
  • lived with Alexis for 4-5 years
  • Dad made her go live with someone somewhere else (didn't catch)
  • Previously told investigators that mom was still sick; must have meant tired
  • Told investigators "she wasn't herself"; she meant was tired
  • The day Michele came home from surgery; she saw mom that day; previous testimony is not refreshing her memory about her mom's condition at that time
  • Doesn't remember her dad cooking every night; they did go on a cruise


Re-direct:

  • She turned 13 the day after her mom died
  • (lost my feed)
  • mom was bandaged after surgery
  • showing she said that her mom was fine that morning; didn't notice anything weird


Jury Questions:

  • Do you remember how you got to school on Apr. 11; she thinks it was her dad that dropped her off


10 min. recess
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:00 pm


Jury is present


Anna Osborne Walthall, another former mistress

  • lives in Arkansas; lived in Park City, Utah in 2007
  • MM was medical director at her laser hair removal clinic; she opened in 2004; didn't do well; closed it in 2005
  • She was going through a divorce (terrible, not amicable)
  • MM volunteered to be a liazon between her and her ex; had more of a personal relationship because of that
  • They eventually got personally involved and began an affair; sexual; roughly March 2005; ended when she moved away in Oct. 2005
  • They would have pillow talk; comfortable talk after having sex
  • At her home, closer to October, MM said there's something you can give someone that is naturally occurring in the body, that could cause a heart attack, but wouldn't be able to be detected after heart attack; doesn't recall if he said that could kill someone
  • They discussed Martin moving with her; he didn't make a commitment to do that; it was a possibility


Cross:

  • Talked with investigators a lot in this case
  • Shared dreams
  • She sent an email to investigators that she had a dream that there's evidence re: a computer; another dream about the autopsy; does it say anything about Michele's toes; and about a white Toyota
  • Has been diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder (formerly called multiple personality disorder)
  • She told investigators she wants him convicted of killing Michele; really excited about MM being off the streets for a very long time


Re-direct:

  • Doesn't think content of dreams should be used as evidence; she was processing info and sometimes gives too much info; thought it might lead to evidence
  • Doesn't know if those dreams produced any evidence
  • Testimony about heart attack was not a dream
  • She has two bachelors; one in business, one in music; has and is raising a family
  • her diagnosis doesn't render her unable to function; does not affect her ability to know truth from lie; reality from fantasy
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by ishi on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:18 pm

Here is the part from the 20/20 episode that mentions MM and Gypsy's attempt to steal adopted daughter, Giselle's identity.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/wifes-death-dark-secrets-utah-doctor-revealed/story?id=12982985&singlePage=true

Father Steals Adopted Daughter's Identity

A couple of months after her mother's death, Alexis MacNeill got a request from her father. He wanted her to take Giselle back to Ukraine, for a long-planned visit with her biological sister. Then 16-year-old Giselle packed a small bag and her Ukrainian passport. MacNeill kept her U.S. passport. Alexis flew over with Giselle and left her with her sister.

"My dad had just basically said … 'We'll get her after the summer,'" said Alexis. With Giselle gone, MacNeill took Willis to apply for a new Social Security card – using Giselle's name, Witney said.

"They went into court and changed the birth date 20 years," said Witney. "That's called perjury. … Now there are two people with that Social Security number, two people with that name."

Then, they went to court to change Giselle's birth certificate. MacNeill claimed Willis was his daughter, Jillian MacNeill.

According to Alexis, her father "was able to change the birth certificates around, and transfer my mother's house that was still in my mom's name." Investigators believe MacNeill was attempting to put the family home into Willis' hands.

Meanwhile, it had been nearly a year since Giselle left and she was languishing in Ukraine. Her older sisters were worried. Without telling MacNeill, their cousin Jill Harper traveled to the Ukraine to check on Giselle. She said conditions there were terrible.

"I walked in the bathroom and the walls were covered in mold and rust," said Harper. "There was a little pan on the floor in the bathroom, and I was like 'What's that in the bathroom?' And she's like, 'That's our shower. You just stand in there' … I mean I don't even know what movie I've ever seen anything that horrible in."

Jill Harper decided to take Giselle on the long journey back to Utah.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:36 pm

Jury is present

Alexis Somers, Martin's daughter


  • Changed her name legally in 2010 from MacNeill
  • She's a doctor (family medicine); outpatient clinic; she's currently on maternity leave
  • Finished her residency in Aug. until her twins were born
  • Doctor out of residency for about 4 months
  • undergrad degree  in history from BYU in 2003
  • post graduate in history of medicine; 2005 degree; then went to medical school in Nevada; started in 2006

  • Growing up, she had a very close relationship with her dad; tagged along with him a lot; went into medicine because she respected him so much
  • April 11:  she was in a lecture; called home; her dad answered, said your mom's in the tub and not breathing; and then he hung up (late morning Pacific; an hour earlier than Mt. time)
  • Dropped everything and ran to the airport
  • She didn't know at first that mom was dead; called MM back; someone else picked up dad's phone; she was screaming is she OK; he (whoever he was) said it doesn't look good; come home
  • Drove to airport; making calls; at airport, she got the official call saying mom had died
  • She called hospital ER; Damian was there; he told her mom was dead
  • Chris Anderson (friend) picked her up and drove her to the house

  • She had been in Utah for over a week; had just flown back to her home on the 10th
  • She was in Utah during spring break; went to help mom due to surgery; beginning of April before surgery
  • Mom, Dad, and the 4 younger sisters were all living there
  • Found out about the surgery a couple of days before surgery; from call from her mom
  • Alexis attended pre-op meeting with surgeon (April 2, day before surgery)
  • She drove with parents to consultation; Dr. Scott Thompson; overheard conversation in car between her parents; mom was hesitant to get the surgery; suggested delaying surgery; push back to summertime because Alexis would be home; also wanted to make sure her hypertension was under control; also wanted to lose weight first; MM had very strong reaction:  "no you can't do that; if you don't have it now, you won't get it; already paid for"; was very angry; Dr. T would be out a lot of money if they didn't proceed
  • At consultation, Dr. went over expectations, writing prescriptions
  • MM had a list of medications previously prepared that he wanted Dr. T to prescribe; she had seem him writing it down the day or two before (was reviewing PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) at the house); hadn't seen him reference the PDR in 10-15 years; the PDR was dusty
  • MM told Dr. that he wanted Michele to have all the meds she would need:  Fenergan, Lortab, Lortab liquid, Ambien and Valium
  • She was really embarrassed because dad was telling plastic surgeon what to prescribe; wasn't her dad's place; MM asked Dr. T to rewrite all prescriptions because he spelled Michele's name with two L's; 8-10 of them
  • MM had written prescriptions for Michele before, but not today; dad was the primary care physician for the family; doesn't remember them ever going to another doctor

  • Her mom had surgery on April 3, 2007; began early in the a.m.;  MM dropped her and mom off; she stayed with Michele until surgery; he left; he had to get back to work; long surgery; 6-8 hours
  • Dr. T came out periodically to give updates; went well; Michele went into recovery room; Michele wanted to stay the night (instead of outpatient) at hospital; MM was back and got upset; he said "we need to go home"; he didn't want her to stay overnight
  • MM called Dr. T; on speakerphone; Alexis was there; MM said Michele wanted to stay overnight; Dr. T said it would be a good idea; MM was very reluctant for her to stay; he was very angry; he wanted her to come home; after talking to Dr. T, he changed his mind
  • Alexis stayed at hospital that night; MM said he couldn't stay; she drove him home and went back to hospital
  • Michele returned home the next morning; Alexis drove her home

  • In the days after surgery, Alexis was her caregiver; medications, eye ointments; eyes bandaged at first; helped her to the bathroom, etc.; gauze around her eyes and forehead; Ace bandage wrapped around; Michele couldn't see due to bandaging first day home
  • Had bandages on her eyes and face; bandages removed within 48 hours
  • Her first day home, Alexis was helping her; taking her vitals, rubbing her legs for good circulation
  • Mom had incisions around her eyes/eyebrows; Alexis dressed wounds
  • Cared for mom that whole day (April 4); but not into night because dad told her she needed to leave; he would be taking care of mom and she needed to go get some sleep
  • At first, Alexis didn't want to leave; planned to sleep on couch with mom; said she wanted to stay; dad insisted that she leave; forced her out
  • She went to Ada's room and she slept there
  • The next morning, she woke early around 6 a.m (April 5); she went into mom's room and saw her mom who appeared to be very sedated; tried to wake her; she wasn't waking up; Alexis shook her but she wouldn't wake up; checked her vitals; OK; pulse was a little low but OK

  • She talked to dad; asked what happened; obviously mom is overmedicated; he said "yeah, I must have given her too much medicine"; she asked what he gave her; he said Lortab, Valium, Ambien; Michele threw up; then he gave her liquid lortab, Percocet, Valium, arnica; Alexis wrote down what he said he gave Michele on a green pad of paper (Zyrtec pad); she wanted to make sure she was doing a good job taking care of her mom (she was writing stuff down since mom came home on green pad; noted medications, foods, vitals, etc.; copied meds and notes into black book)
  • Alexis told him you are not to give her any more medicine; I'm taking over
  • She asked him what time he gave the drugs; she wrote it down
  • he gave Michele arnica at 12 a.m., Valium at 12 am,  lortab at 1 am, phenergan at 1; 2 percocet at 1:30; ambien at 1:30 am
  • Alexis used green pad for notes starting day after surgery; later transferred that data to a black book; green pad was kept in Michele's bedroom in a drawer; black book was kept somewhere else
  • Alexis stayed with Michele that day; helped dress her wounds; checking her vitals; trying to get her to fully wake up; Michele wasn't responding initially; throughout the day it took a long time before Michele became alert enough to be able to respond; became lucid later on that day; early evening where they could have full conversation
  • Alexis gave her medications (9:45 eye ointment, 10 a.m. hydrogen peroxide to clean her incisions; early afternoon she gave her arnica; refreshing her memory from green pad; 12:50 methyl prednozone (steroid); lucid enough to swallow meds; 12:50 Premarin (estrogen for previous hysterectomy);  2:45 p.m. one Percocet (oxy and Tylenol); she was in pain at that time; 4 p.m. Keflex (anti-biotic); 5:15 Vitamin C, methyl prednozone; 7:15 Percocet; 10:30 methyl prednozone; 11:05 another percocet
  • mom was back to normal state by that evening
  • She asked mom what happened: mom said I don't know why he kept giving me medication; I even threw up and he still kept giving me pills
  • Mom still had bandages; she was upset; could hear it in her voice; she didn't want Martin to give her any more meds; had Alexis take out all pills so she could feel each to recognize the shapes of each pill; didn't want MM to give her any more meds

  • Over the next few days, Michele was able to get up a lot and walk around within 48 hours; Alexis still helped her get around, wash her hair
  • Two post-op visits; first one Dr. T would check incisions a couple of days after surgery; another one on April 10; MM drove
  • MM didn't take any time off from work
  • April 10; last post-op with Dr. T:  Dr. T was removing something (staples?)
  • MM asked Dr. if Michele  was doing well enough to take her on a cruise on Sunday to have two weeks to recover and relax
  • During last post-op, Michele was feeling really well; joking around; still had bruising and some swelling; one bandage around her head; went out to dinner afterwards; no problem walking
  • Went to Sizzler; mom had terriyaki meal; mom, dad, Alexis, and Ada were present
  • After dinner, they drove to airport to drop Alexis off
  • M was taking very little narcotics; 1, maybe 2 Percocet per day; half a pill at a time
  • Arnica - herbal supplement to help with bruising

  • April 11, black book disappeared
  • Alexis never gave Valium to her mom; never gave phenergan suppository; never gave her Ambien; she didn't have a difficult time sleeping; never needed it; she did administered Percocet; tapered down; mom didn't want to take meds; she was sensitive to narcotics
  • Alexis returned to Nevada on April 10
  • Alexis called her mom to let her know she'd arrived home; mom said she was feeling fine; getting back to her normal routine
  • April 11:  spoke to Michele that morning before 8 a.m. (about 7:45 Las Vegas time; 8:45 Utah time); she's doing great; was happy; was ready for the day; she said she was going to pick up the girls from school, ballet; had specific routine every day; mom sounded really upbeat and happy; not slurring or confused at all
  • She checked her phone later (during break in class); missed call; VM from dad; you need to call your mom; she's not listening, she's out of bed, she needs to rest; thought it was strange; she was fine earlier; she was back to her normal self; about 9:15 Utah time
  • She called mom; no response; no one answered (around 10 a.m. Utah time)
  • Had another lecture, so went back to class; after that she called home again
  • MM answered the phone; he said your mom's not breathing; she's in the bathtub; I've called an ambulance and then hung up

  • She flew home and went straight to the house
  • She walked in the door; saw Damian and Eileen in living room; hugged them; went back to bedroom to find medication; saw that the room had been cleaned out (the hospital bed was already gone; little stuffed animals and blankets were gone)
  • She went looking for meds - didn't find them where she had left them; black book was also gone (kept under the meds)
  • Green pad had been stored in a drawer; it was still there and not missing
  • She looked elsewhere for meds; then asked dad where they were; he said "I don't know, I think the police might have taken them"; she went looking around the house for the meds; checked medication drawer in kitchen; garage; didn't find the meds anywhere; found her mom's belongings in the garage; pile of wet towels, some clothes, a rug from the bathroom, a blue Rubbermaid gallon bucket that had some of her mom's stuff; humidfier, blood pressure cuff, etc.
  • After she asked him about meds, she asked what happened; he took her into the bathroom and showed her how he found her mom
  • He said he found her slumped over the tub; her head down into the water, face down and her face was in the water, her feet sticking out the back; head near faucet; he physically demonstrated how he found her
  • Pros. asked Alexis to step down and walk to tub in courtroom; she demonstrated what he demonstrated to her; leaning down into tub; defendant got pretty far into the tub; feet were sticking out
  • MM said Michele may have been preparing a bath; may have slipped and fallen into tub; she may have had a PE (pulmonary embollism/blood clot); he said she had garments on; no pants; naked from the waist down
  • she noticed the rug was missing from the bathroom (later found in garage); the rug had been right outside tub below step

  • ID'ed picture of Gypsy Jillian Willis
  • She went by "Jillian"
  • Right after she finished first year of finals, drove to family home and Jillian was there
  • MM said she was the nanny
  • She knew about Gypsy before Michele's death
  • She overheard argument between her parents; a few days before she died; in their bedroom arguing; door was shut; Alexis was outside door; mom wanted to see dad's phone records so she could see if he was still calling the number that belonged to Gypsy; confronted MM with suspicions of affair (had confronted him previously); Michele told MM:  "I'm not going to let this die"; he told her she was crazy; ridiculous; said he was not having an affair
  • mom had password so accessed his phone records on line; he had changed his password; confronted him with that; he said he couldn't give her the new password because the phone was owned by USDC; thinks he stated HIPPA rules as why he couldn't give her access
  • Late March, mom had confided with Alexis that dad was having affair; at her mom's request, she took his phone, got his password, checked online and saw a specific number he'd call really late at night; she called it; female voice answered
  • mom had her go online to intelius.com to research that phone number; she signed up and paid fee for report; Gypsy Jillian Willis owned that number (this was around March 20)
  • Alexis never saw Jillian do any nanny-related functions; she came and went; never picked up the kids; never cooked or cleaned; followed her dad a lot; left together often

  • Within a week after funeral, became aware that dad had a nanny; he said Jil...she said, Gypsy Jillian?  Accused her dad of affair with Gypsy; he got furious and hung up on her
  • The day after death, dad talked with Medical Examiner (ME - Dr. Fricky); he had her on speakerphone; Alexis was present; dad told ME what had happened; how he found her; medications she had been taking; asked her if she found anything abnormal; yes, she didn't have a uterus; they both laughed; Rachel may have overheard some of the conversation; Alexis wanted to hear what happened (Rachel didn't)
  • She's familiar with her mom's bathing habits; she took a bath several times a week throughout her life; she'd start the bath water; get in; turn the hot water up, turn off water when full; never waited to get in until water was full
  • mom was her best friend; she was always around her mom; mom was her superhero; she was mom's sidekick; they both confided in each other
  • She doesn't recall if MM told her if the water was running on not when he found Michele
  • Alexis has emailed investigators over the years
  • Pros. showing her an email from 8/7/2008 to refresh her memory
  • MM told her that the water was off, and the tub was full
  • Alexis had taken a bath in that tub before mom's death; took a long time before she'd ever take a bath again
  • MM had said he surprised Michele with plastic surgery as a present
  • Stipulation to accept Alexis' phone records into evidence; confirming phone numbers which are being blocked by media


Lunch recess until 1 p.m.

-----

Phew!!!
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:45 pm


Jury is present


Alexis Somers, Martin's daughter, continued

Cross:

  • Talked a lot with investigators
  • Ada living with her; she has custody of her sisters
  • Fall, 2007, she created an official statement with concerns about her father; provided to LE
  • Provided other drafts to State Attorney's office as well
  • Worked with Doug Whitney, who asked for more details; she added that info
  • Also emailed LE; shared facts about recollection of events
  • Shared memories with LE
  • Sept. 2009, met with investigators with Rachel
  • Sat in on interview with Vanessa, Jan. 20, 2009
  • Involved in interview with Linda Cluff (Michele's sister); Jan. 2011
  • Oct. 2012 preliminary hearing; she testified then
  • Previous testimony was that dad suggested  a couple of months before that she have surgery; she says that's inaccurate

  • She took dad's phone; she told him she was going to download a new ringtone, which she did, even though investigators didn't ask and she didn't say that she did
  • She used dad's phone, emailed T-Mobile to send the password to his phone; doesn't remember deleting that email afterwards; previous letter to Whitney says she deleted the email
  • She said her dad asked Dr. T to prescribe Ambien; lawyer indicating that was a med. Dr. T usually prescribed; she said she knows it was on her dad's list
  • No mention in previous testimony about him referring to PDR or dad's list of medications; that was reported later (took police a while to look into her mom's death)
  • Dr. T said Michele wouldn't have to postpone surgery unless she needed to lose 50 lbs. or more; not the case here

  • Day 2 green notes; records of what Alexis gave Michele
  • Day 3 notes are what Martin stated he gave her, including approx. times
  • Took the whole day for her mother to become lucid; have full conversation
  • Lawyer saying she hasn't mentioned previously that her mom could say some things before evening that night; she says she was never asked that
  • lawyer trying to say she's being inconsistent today; no, I've just answered the specific questions I've been asked
  • April 5, she said she didn't leave the house; her cell phone record shows she called the house that day; she says her sisters used her cell phone, and she doesn't recall leaving the house that day
  • Lawyer implying that she never told previously that she had copied her notes into another notebook; she thinks she did, but doesn't recall
  • Lawyer said 20/20 episode was after interviews; she said it aired afterwards, but the interviews for 20/20 took place before
  • she threw the green pad into her bag after her mom's funeral
  • Questioning about call with Dr. Fricky; doesn't recall saying anything about over-medication with Dr. Fricky
  • She didn't say anything to Dr. Thompson about the over-medication issue; she was giving her mom her meds by this point, so it wasn't an issue anymore

  • In her official statement, she never mentioned fight she overheard between her parents about Gypsy; she left out a lot; that was her writing up a few things to give to the police
  • Investigators had questioned her about her mom's bathing habits;  lawyer says she never told anyone before today that she'd get in the tub before filling the tub; she says she did; she wasn't asked during that particular interview
  • Lawyer trying to say she said her mom felt sick the morning she died and was going back to bed; she said that's what MM said; she wouldn't have left if her mom wasn't feeling well
  • Now on funeral; showing her what she supposedly said at the funeral; she doesn't remember saying this

  • On the day Michele died, Alexis only talked to her one time; lawyer implying she spoke to her twice, per her official statement; she doesn't remember speaking to her twice; she remembers the first call to her mom not being answered
  • In her previous testimony, she thinks she was adding an hour instead of subtracting for time zone difference; that's why she got the times wrong in earlier testimony; she later got her phone records and was then able to pinpoint the calls and their times
  • lawyer saying she changed her story after getting her phone records; no
  • phone records show she called customer care on the day Michele died; she doesn't remember that
  • Pointing out discrepancies in what she said she did the morning of Michele's death; she didn't remember that she had gone home first; she recalled later that she went home first
  • On April 11, she asked him what happened; she said show me how you found her; she didn't say back then that she asked him twice


Recess for the day; housekeeping matters to be discussed started at 8:30; jury asked to come in at 9 a.m.


Jury is not present

Judge:  in the morning, I need info regarding inmates; needs to be a compelling reason to limit electronic media coverage on trial

Prosecutor:  Dr. Gray needs to testify tomorrow; not available on Friday

Court in recess for the day.



Last edited by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed typos)
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:50 pm

From above shared link:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/wifes-death-dark-secrets-utah-doctor-
revealed/story?id=12982985&singlePage=true


Play thru until section on Torrid Affair.
Tons of info on Gypsy.
Mother has pics shown of where Gypsy bit her leaving terrible bruising.
Said Gypsy killed animals as child.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:42 pm

Published on Oct 30, 2013



Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 8 - Part 1




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 8 - Part 2 (Alexis Somers)




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 8 - Part 3 (Alexis Somers)




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 8 - Part 4 (Alexis Somers)


http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123/videos
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:23 pm


Utah Doctor Trial: Mistress No. 2 Testifies About Disturbing Pillow Talk

10/30/2013 at 05:00 PM EDT

A second mistress of Martin MacNeill's calmly took the stand in his first-degree murder trial Wednesday in a Provo, Utah courtroom, and revealed he once told her a chilling detail when they were intimate.

"You know, how after you have sex and you're laying there and you feel close and talk a little more open?" testified Anna Osborne Walthall, 48, whose affair with MacNeill lasted about seven months in 2005 after they briefly worked together. "It was like that."

Osborne Walthall, who once ran a laser-hair removal business in Salt Lake City for which MacNeill was an advisor, said MacNeill told her he knew about a substance that could induce an "undetectable" heart attack that would make the incident appear natural.

...Osborne Walthall had once told investigators that MacNeill confessed to having murdered his own brother when they were young as well as having mercy killed disabled patients at the last facility where he worked – but those claims were ruled not admissible at trial.

Read more:  http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20750820,00.html?xid=email-peopledaily-20131030PM-20750820
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Ann - Tx on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:07 am

Thanks to everyone for the awesome updates!   I really do appreciate your hard work . . .

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:19 am

From link shared above by AD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQolyBDYflE
See: @ 13:40

This is Vanessa testifying earlier today.
When she takes the stand, she rests her hand and fingers on edge of the wood shield around the stand.
Her fingers are shaking badly.
She screws up her mouth in nervous anticipation.

Brings it home as to how hard this has been on the family.
More appreciation for Alexis who was the glue holding this family together.
Her mother would be please ....
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:39 am

Please correct me if I am wrong re the time line.
Comments are always welcome!

I don't have a time line but it appears MM started his affairs with Anna W and Gypsy 2-4 years prior to the murder of Michele.
Wasn't this about the time Michele had gone to the Ukraine to make adoption arrangements/bring the girls back to the States?

Wondering if with the absence of Michele MM felt entitled to "stray"?
Perhaps, MM felt if Michele could have her wish re adopting the children he could have his wish and play around?
Or maybe the affairs were his way of punishing Michele?
Has MM ever stated WHY he had the affairs?

Were the affairs activate around the time Michele was working on the adoptions?
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Gizmo711 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:46 am

Freckles wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong re the time line.
Comments are always welcome!

I don't have a time line but it appears MM started his affairs with Anna W and Gypsy 2-4 years prior to the murder of Michele.
Wasn't this about the time Michele had gone to the Ukraine to make adoption arrangements/bring the girls back to the States?

Wondering if with the absence of Michele MM felt entitled to "stray"?
Perhaps, MM felt if Michele could have her wish re adopting the children he could have his wish and play around?
Or maybe the affairs were his way of punishing Michele?
Has MM ever stated WHY he had the affairs?

Were the affairs activate around the time Michele was working on the adoptions?
I honestly don't think this creep needed an excuse to cheat on his wife. He appears to be a man who thinks he can do what ever he pleases and get away with it. If the statement is true about him killing his own brother etc., then he has been a bastard since way back when. He destroyed an entire family. Then he meets someone who thinks like him (Gypsy) and the two were made in hell for each other. I also believe that the two are still carrying on their affair, they are just being very quiet about it.

I believe that Gypsy played a big roll in the murder of Michele. I just wish there was some way that charges can be brought against her as well.

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by ishi on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:29 am

Gizmo711 wrote:I honestly don't think this creep needed an excuse to cheat on his wife.  He appears to be a man who thinks he can do what ever he pleases and get away with it.  If the statement is true about him killing his own brother etc., then he has been a bastard since way back when.  He destroyed an entire family.  Then he meets someone who thinks like him (Gypsy) and the two were made in hell for each other.  I also believe that the two are still carrying on their affair, they are just being very quiet about it.  

I believe that Gypsy played a big roll in the murder of Michele.  I just wish there was some way that charges can be brought against her as well.
Best Posting Of The  Excellent , Gizmo!
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State of Utah Witness list dated 7/15/13 -- Martin J. MacNeill trial

Post by Ann - Tx on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:03 am

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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Nan11 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:27 am



Last edited by Nan11 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Nan11 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:13 pm

CuriousPortlander wrote:ETA:  Oops, sorry, Nan; I didn't see your post when I bumped this.

Cute pictures!
Thank you, CP.  I just edited my comment.  I deleted one of the links because it was not streaming; and regarding the ABC link, you may have to click on the bottom small video to the left of the live stream box. (You should see the trial playing in it.)

Sorry for any inconvenience.
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Tweets from Reporter Ben Winslow - FOX 13

Post by Ann - Tx on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:27 pm


Excellent live stream here:

http://fox13now.com/2013/10/22/martin-macneill-trail-continuing-coverage/
FOX13 - Salt Lake City, UTAH  --  Live stream of Martin MacNeill trial plus
Tweets from reporter Ben Winslow
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:00 pm

Thank you, Ann - Tx!

It is great to "see" you!

 
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:08 pm



Last edited by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Quite interesting! There is a lot of information here:

AFFIDAVIT IN SUPPORT OF AND REQUEST FOR SEARCH WARRANT

http://martinmacneill.info/MacNeill_Search_Warrant_03_16_2011.pdf
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by tesstruhart on Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:27 pm

Hi Folks, been away from here for a long while. Had to recover from JA. I just started watching this trial. I am not familiar with all the facts, but it does seem that the family is against this man but how about the facts....do they support that so far?
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:30 pm


Notes from Oct. 31


Happy Halloween!

jury is not present

Female defense attorney is not present.  Discussing inmates who will testify and why their identities need to be hidden; prosecutor says it involves danger for their safety because the way they were called out was obvious that they would be "snitches".  Other inmates told them to pack up (if they testified).  Puts them in a very compromised situation.

Judge is saying that all inmates would qualify under that argument.  Prosecutor says they have expressed their concerns for safety, which makes it different; different circumstances here.

Judge taking under advisement; short recess for him to consider

Judge's decision:  Grants the state's motion:  referred to as Inmate 3 and 4; pool photographer can not photograph.  Media will not show them.

Jury is now present

Alexis Somers, continued

Cross, continued

  • Discussing mom's bathing habits; defense attorney correcting himself!
  • Email she sent to Doug Whitney; said mom would have gotten completely undressed before taking a bath; one email said she took them off in the closet; lawyer says she said bathroom; she says the closet is in the bathroom
  • calls on her phone to customer care; dad called her before that (8:10); she was in class when she got the call from her dad; she doesn't remember the call to customer care
  • At prelim hearing, she said she'd give her mom a half or one Percocet; in her green pad notes, there was no mention of a half Percocet; didn't have the log to look at; she was prescribed two, so she gave her less than prescribed
  • She found clothes in the garage; in Jan. 2011 interview, she said she never found the bottoms; said she found them in the laundry; Rachel moved the clothes to the laundry room
  • discussing who did laundry on April 10; one time she said she did it; another time she said she didn't do it; she did do the laundry and it was stacked up; Michele might have done more laundry on the day she died; Alexis said she may have mistakenly said she didn't do the laundry
  • Yesterday she said MM dropped her and mom off the day of the surgery; previously she said he stayed until the IV was put in and then he left; latter is correct
  • Discussion about who was to pick Ada up on April 11; she doesn't recognize interview he's pointing to; not sure it's her words
  • Discussing Alexis trying to get her mom's medical records; hospital said they could only release them to her dad; she had a friend who is a doctor request and get the records - objection


Judge calls short recess so he can look something up

Jury not present

Alleged misrepresentation to hospital to get medical records; can be cross-examined

Recess (prosecutor needs time to prep for next witness)

Jury not present
Prosecutor needs two more minutes to finish redacting info from a piece of evidence.
Judge clarified that Gypsy was allowed to be questioned with leading questions by the prosecutor on Tuesday.

Jury is now present

Cross, continued

  • A friend of hers, who is a physician, got the lab info; she was told those reports could only be given to the husband; lawyer saying it was because of HIPPA
  • Dr. friend (Fez Hussain?) called hospital before Michele died (while Alexis was going to airport to go home); lawyer saying that Dr. had to say he was the treating physician; she says that's not always the case; hadn't taken the HIPPA training class yet; she said she asked Dr. friend to call the hospital to see how her mom was; not to get records; lawyer saying she's never said that before; Alexis says that she was never asked that before; she remembers this; she didn't identify this Dr. in the email; she didn't contact Dr. friend to get her mother's records
  • Dr. friend shared his opinion of the lab reports; Alexis emailed that to LE
  • Spencer sent Alexis a subpoena; asked for name and address of Dr. friend she contacted to get lab work; Alexis responded to that subpoena saying she didn't contact him to get her mom's lab; hearing in 2013 - she said someone else helped her acquire those records; she said she didn't remember who got those labs; lawyer saying she made up this information
  • showing Alexis her application for medical school; showing where she signed that the information was correct; lists employment experience; she said she was working as a nanny for her sister who has no children; lawyer implying she had prepped Rachel to lie for her
  • included letters of recommendation with her app; lawyer saying she submitted a letter from Joseph Martin; she said she didn't submit them; they were submitted directly to the school (not by her); lawyer shows her the letter; she's never seen it before; lawyer says Joseph Martin is a fake name for her father; she never asked her father for such a letter
  • Showing clip of Alexis' statement at her mom's funeral saying her mom was a little sick the last time she talked to her
  • Lots of things you misrepresented - objection, argumentative; sustained


Re-direct:

  • mom was still recovering but doing well the day she died
  • why was Alexis trying to get medical records:  because she believed her father killed her mother
  • school application; she put down Rachel as a reference because she (Alexis) was acting as nanny to her younger sisters
  • She was trying to get others to look into her mother's death
  • Mom's blood pressure was OK to proceed with surgery on April 3; leading up to surgery she had been taking medication for her blood pressure; was aware of her mom's hesitance to have surgery that day
  • Need to do laundry every day with such a big family
  • Right before Michele died, Alexis would break up the Percocet and give it to her in halves; 1-2 pills in total per day
  • Now back to the $5K MM gave her; it was unusual to be handed money for no reason
  • 20/20 clip showed yesterday was an excerpt of an 8 hour interview; not representative
  • discussion about law suit regarding family home; Alexis doesn't gain anything if dad's convicted; she's spent much more than she'd receive
  • wanted dad's phone password because mom was suspicious dad was having an affair
  • Ambien was one of the meds that MM had written down that he wanted Dr. Thompson to prescribe
  • Back to over-medicated situation; going over defense's allegation that she changed her story about how sedated Michele was; previous testimony says her mom could say ow, and a word or two, and moaning, earlier in the day, but not fully lucid until much later; Alexis gave Michele a Percocet later that day in response to her moaning
  • Green pad of notes represents day 2-5 after surgery; incomplete; used black book to document vitals and food; wanted to combine all together with meds; black book had lines, so it was more organized/neat, and it was bound (vs. green pad)
  • Re: Dr. Fricky - she wanted to hear what she found in autopsy
  • Never mentioned over-medication to Dr. Thompson; no longer an issue because Alexis was now administering meds
  • On April 10, she did not believe that her dad was trying to kill her mom; otherwise she never would have left her mom with him
  • When dad demonstrated how he found her mom, he did it twice, and she observed it both times
  • Shows Alexis picture of Gypsy; asked if Alexis is familiar with what Gypsy is wearing; objection; approach; sustained


Jury Questions

  • Do you know what Michele's maiden name was:  Somers
  • Do you know who appointed you executor:  Dad
  • What time was phone call from defendant about mother not breathing in tub:  about 11 Utah time, but have to check phone records for specific time
  • Did you leave on April 10 thinking they were going on cruise on Sunday:  No
  • Was dad present when Michele said she didn't want him to admin more med?  No


Follow up:

  • Was Ada with your dad when dad called about mom in bathtub; she learned later that he had picked up Ada from school (11:50 approx.); he had said he had called an ambulance and then hung up
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:37 pm


Dr. Todd Cameron Grey; Chief Medical Examiner (ME)for state of Utah


  • made chief in 1988
  • he's a doctor
  • undergrad degree from Yale; going over his education (Dartmouth and other schooling)
  • forensic pathology training
  • Also he's an associate clinical professor; teaches forensic pathology
  • teaches LE, attorneys, nursing students, EMTs
  • Board Certified (anatomic and forensic)
  • member of National Association of Medical Examiners; American Academy of Forensic Scientists
  • has presented on determining cause and manner of death
  • he's published peer-reviewed journal articles and chapters in text books
  • Dr. Fricky was assistant ME; she died in 2008 from breast cancer
  • He got Michele's case to follow up on; asked to reassess cause and manner of death
  • different levels of causes of death
  • cause of death is description of disease
  • mechanism of death is about physiology of death
  • manner of death is an opinion; classified as natural, accidental, suicide, homicide, undetermined
  • Undetermined means we can't be sure
  • Need investigative information surrounding death to put manner of death into context
  • ME makes no determination of motive or culpability

  • Showed witness exhibit 49 autopsy dated May 22, 2007, written and signed by Dr. Fricky; does not include toxicology report,
  • Exhibit 50 is copy of amended autopsy with her and his opinion on cause of death (Oct. 6, 2010); no tox report attached
  • Exhibit 51 - various forms and diagrams
  • Also toxicology report that wasn't attached to exhibits 49 and 50
  • Dr. Fricky did a complete autopsy on April 12, 2007
  • Dr. Grey has disks and other documents that are part of his records; docs from investigators, etc.; not sure if defense docs are part of that file
  • Dr. Fricky's opinion as to cause of death: appears to be natural cardiovascular disease with chronic hypertension (high blood pressure) and miocarditis (sp?) (inflammation of the heart)
  • Michele's high blood pressure - he'd call mild or moderate
  • miocarditis was not very severe or extensive
  • ME's look for other evidence as to damage that might be caused elsewhere by high blood pressure
  • Mild miocarditis could be contested amongst experts
  • Miocarditis can be mis-diagnosed
  • Cause of death opinion can change if you get more information; microscopic details, new investigative info; asked to provide an example of when investigative info could change COD determination; objection - approach
  • Dr. Fricky said manner of death was natural
  • Manner of death can be disputed by other experts

  • He was asked to review Dr. Fricky's report; an investigator started an investigation which raised questions as to whether this was a natural death; was provided with investigative information which questioned circumstances, motive; stuff that wasn't known originally
  • He amended COD and added drug toxicity may have played a role as well; changed after reexamining tox report and weighing those findings in the face of other investigative information that was provided
  • Active drugs found in her system:  Valium (diazepam), nordiazepam (metabolite of diazepam), oxycodone, promethazine, zolpidem (Ambien)
  • nordiazepam means that person had taken Valium and it had been in her body long enough to metabolize (break down)
  • Drug toxicity means effects of drugs may have played a role in this person's death
  • If promethazine was too low a level to determine, the finding that drugs played a role doesn't change; it's not a CNS depressant, like the other three drugs were
  • Oxycodone (Percocet) was strongest CNS depressant; Ambien and Valium would have similar effects
  • promethazine has a depressant effect, but different (on different parts of the system)
  • CNS depressants could play into problems from her heart disease
  • drugs could have led to unconsciousness which could have contributed to death
  • Arythmia is a mechanism of death; not a cause
  • Unlikely that the drugs alone caused her death; those levels not individually responsible for COD
  • Interpretation of toxicology report has to be coupled with investigative info
  • opinion for manner of death is only as good as the info you have; info may be incomplete
  • Can never have complete and irrefutable data
  • He has considered that drowning is a possible cause of death; but he could not make that diagnosis with absolute certainty, based on the info he had
  • He had statements made by defendant about how he found her that raised questions
  • Which statements?  Objection-speculation; approach; overruled; may present hypothetical
  • missed hypothetical


Lunch recess until 1:40 p.m.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:27 pm


Jury is now present


Dr. Grey, continued

Cross:  (I missed the first few minutes)

  • He didn't see enough to make a diagnosis of drowning
  • His exam of slides of lungs didn't have enough findings for him to know it was an aspiration of water situation
  • He doesn't know the source of the water
  • He believes the cause of death is combined effects of heart disease and drug toxicity; Spencer is mixing up COD and mechanism
  • Mechanism could be arrhythmia and the most likely mechanism
  • Her heart was heavier than normal; thicker walls; could increase risk of arrhythmia
  • Prolonged QTC rate on March 29th; a possible risk factor for developing arrhythmia
  • QTC indicates 476 - increased number; would have to check to see if it falls outside of "normal"
  • Spencer showing him document that shows that a value greater than 470 shows increased risk of arrhythmia; risk may be three-fold, but the chance of it happening is very small
  • Medications would increase risk due to other factors; risk still remains low
  • Can't predict arrhythmia due to these factors
  • She had other symptoms that could increase the risk of arrhythmia and sudden death (slight blockage in arteries)

  • Given lots of info to review; he sent an email back to investigator; Sept. 30, 2008; said he had reviewed reports (investigative, autopsy, case notes etc.); raises questions; nothing in autopsy proves unnatural cause
  • Over the next 2 years, he had lots of interaction with investigators
  • Modified COD and manner slightly; investigators showed how they thought it was a homicide; he knew that prosecution would be difficult with existing autopsy findings
  • Dr. Grey chose his words very carefully; showed possibilities; didn't have proof
  • Regarding water being expelled, he'd have to see/know what was in her lungs/stomach first
  • If a person had an arrhythmia and then went into water, they could inhale some water
  • You may be breathing, but could be unconscious
  • Can't make a conclusion about ante-mortem levels of medications based on postmortem heart blood samples; too fraught with errors; have to make some assumptions
  • Showing body diagram that Dr. Fricky did at autopsy; shows IV in left forearm; needle marks in top of right hand; no needle marks that couldn't be explained
  • Asked again in Aug. 2013 to review his findings again; was sent additional reports about alleged statements of MM; new info to him; in response, he wrote that he had reviewed the info; although new info is suspicious, doesn't find anything so compelling to prove homicide


Re-direct:

  • death result of combined effects of heart disease and drug toxicity
  • new info did not overcome the lack of physical evidence from the autopsy
  • if someone confesses to credible witness to drugging person, and holding her head under water, would that overcome physical evidence?  Define "credible"; that's the problem
  • Have no physical evidence that she had an arrhythmia; that's purely speculation; arrhythmia is not a COD
  • Did not change COD due to pressure from anyone; bound by medical ethics - do no harm
  • water could have diluted the blood; showed lowered concentration of drugs than were actually present


Re-cross:

  • he could not determine water in the lungs; dilution could have been from fluids administered during resuscitation; the amount of fluid she got was about 22% of her blood volume
  • Discussing postmortem redistribution ranges of each drug
  • blood taken from heart vs. peripherally would show different results
  • Drowning is a possibility; can't prove it; can't prove arrhythmia after death
  • Fluids administered during resuscitation could make it harder to determine drowning
  • Drowning as a COD is pathologically difficult to prove



Re-re-direct:

  • Drugs found had a combined effect, and a role in her death


Jury Questions:

  • If Michele had been given arnica, would there have been evidence of this; he is not sure what arnica is
  • Is it possible for someone to suffocate in water without showing signs of drowning:  Yes; if person takes big gulp of water, spasm could happen and block air; it's called dry lung drowning
  • how many blood samples take from heart and what locations?  Standard is three tubes in every case; heart sample - he doesn't know location in this case; three samples were taken, all cardiac
  • What is a QTC interval?  In electrocardiogram, you can measure between the peaks and valleys of the pattern
  • What evidence suggests drowning was possible:  autopsy found increased weight of lungs; heavier than normal; edema, congestion can't be used; could be result of resuscitation


Follow-up:

  • Redactions were only in Dr. F's notes; not autopsy report



Defense

  • 3 vials of blood drawn from heart; also vitreous fluid drawn from eyeballs; drug tests were not done on those samples; Dr. Fricky could have ordered that test
  • vitreous fluid is less affected by postmortem redistribution



Follow-up

    Dr. Fricky was a very well respected ME; yes



Recess for the day
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:59 pm

Published on Oct 31, 2013



Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 9 - Part 1




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 9 - Part 2




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 9 - Part 3


http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123/videos
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Ann - Tx on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:31 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:Thank you, Ann - Tx!

It is great to "see" you!

 
It is great to "see" you too, Ales! Glad that I can be on the internet again. Had to get a new modem and then due to a long awaited move, was without high speed broadband service since Oct. 16 . . . (ouch!-- lol) So glad to have broadband again! Very Happy 
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Ann - Tx on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:45 pm


Medical examiner: Drugs played role in Michele MacNeill’s death

Courts » Todd Grey denies he was pressured to reopen case and change manner of death.

The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake City, UT

First Published Oct 30 2013 06:31 pm • Updated 1 hour ago

 
Provo • Was Michele MacNeill killed at the hands of her doctor husband, or was her death natural?

It’s the question at the heart of Martin MacNeill’s murder trial.


Snipped:

Grey said there was also some evidence that Michele MacNeill may have drowned, and pointed to reports from medical responders who said that while undergoing CPR, the woman coughed up several cups of water, some of it pink and frothy. But Grey said he could not be sure if that water came from the woman’s lungs or stomach.

Though Grey said he did not see enough evidence in the woman’s lungs to indicate that drowning played a role in the woman’s death, he said it could still be possible.


Snipped:

"If you were to learn that the defendant told somebody that he had drugged up Michele MacNeill, and convinced her to get into the tub and held her down for a little bit, and it caused her death, would that scenario be consistent [with the autopsy results?]" Deputy Utah County Attorney Chad Grunander posed as a hypothetical question.

"Yes, it certainly is possible," Grey said.

Grunander also inquired whether Grey was "pressured" by Utah County Attorney’s Office investigators to re-open the case and change the manner of death so their homicide investigation could continue. Grey denied this.

"You basically have no effect on my life," Grey told Grunander, adding that he does not work for the county attorney’s office or law enforcement.


Read more:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57062865-78/macneill-martin-trial-murder.html.csp
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:57 pm

Medical examiner: Evidence in Michele MacNeill's death insufficient for 'homicide' finding

By Jennifer Dobner, For the Deseret News
Published: Thursday, Oct. 31 2013 11:05 a.m. MDT
Updated: 4 hours ago


PROVO — Whether she died from heart disease or drowning, none of the facts or circumstances surrounding Michele MacNeill’s death provided sufficient evidence to conclude the death was a homicide, Utah’s chief medical examiner told a jury Thursday.

“I certified that the manner of death was undetermined,” Todd Grey said, testifying in the 4th District Court murder trial of the woman's husband, Martin MacNeill. “I did not feel that I could reach a conclusion of homicide.”

Grey's conclusions came in a 2010 reassessment of an original autopsy, which said Michele MacNeill died of natural causes related to heart disease, specifically “chronic hypertension and myocarditis, which are capable of causing acute unexpected arrhythmia and sudden death.”

Grey told jurors he believes the combined effects of natural heart disease and drug toxicity — a cocktail of painkillers and other drugs found in Michele MacNeill's system — were the likely cause of her death.

Read more:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865589527/MacNeill-daughter-testifies-for-2nd-day-in-fathers-murder-trial.html

___________________

Macneill Trial: Medical Examiner Says Drugs May Have Led to Death

Thursday, October 31 2013, 09:07 PM MDT

(KUTV) Three years after her death, the Utah medical examiner "amended" Michele MacNeill's autopsy report.

"I amended the cause of death in this case and added in addition to cardiovascular (disease), the possibility that drug toxicity may have played a role as well," Dr. Todd Grey testified.

Prosecutors contend Martin MacNeill, the philandering physician on trial for killing his wife, drugged her with prescription medicine which he recommended she have post-plastic surgery, and then convinced her to get into bathtub and drowned her.

A defense lawyer noted the amended autopsy came after investigators went to Grey with their concerns in the case, and that Grey had earlier "declined" to modify the report.

Grey also testified it was "unlikely" drugs alone caused Michele's death, and said of drowning, "It's a possibility, based on the information that's been presented, that I've seen, but I could not make that diagnosis with absolute certainty."

Under cross examination, Grey said he did not believe he had enough information to make a "certification of homicide." Neither did he see enough "to make a certification of drowning."

Read more:

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7836.shtml


Last edited by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Ann - Tx on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:03 am


Utah's Chief Medical Examiner testifies why he changed Michele MacNeill's cause of death

10/31/2013 11:31 PM

KTVX (ABC) - Salt Lake City, UT


PROVO, Utah (ABC 4 Utah) - There has been a lot of talk and testimony over motive, but Thursday the jury in the Martin MacNeill murder trial finally got to hear about how Michele may have died.


Snipped:

The jury asked the question why Dr. Grey couldn't diagnose the cause of Michele’s death as drowning. He explained that while the autopsy reports did show her lungs were heavy, about twice the weight of normal lungs, meaning there could be fluid or blood in the lung. Dr. Grey explained that's not uncommon in cases of prolonged resuscitation; something that was definitely done to Michele if not by martin certainly by first responders and crews at the emergency room.

Read more:

http://www.4utah.com/story/utahs-chief-medical-examiner-testifies-why-he-changed-michele-macneills-cause-of-death/d/story/WdQZ-v68KUGlpnUZicjLEg
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Ann - Tx on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:27 am


Doctor says it's 'unlikely' drugs alone killed Michele MacNeill

November 1, 2013

Daily Herald - Provo, Utah


Snipped:

Prosecuting attorney Chad Grunander asked a hypothetical question of Grey saying, "If you were to learn that the defendant had told someone he drugged up Michele, convinced her to get in the bathtub and held her under for a little while, would that be consistent with your findings?"

Dr. Grey responded that it "certainly was possible."

Several federal inmates are expected to testify that MacNeill did make those statements to him while he was in federal prison.

Prior to testimony being heard Thursday morning, 4th District Judge Derek Pullan ruled that all four federal inmates that will be testifying in the case cannot be photographed or recorded and that they will be referred to only as inmate one, two, three and four. Pullan had already made that ruling for two of the inmates, but extended the ruling to include the other two inmates.


Read more:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/doctor-says-it-s-unlikely-drugs-alone-killed-michele-macneill/article_01a74f64-7453-5a86-9a81-15322d6e6f17.html
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Nan11 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:15 am

Live streams for today's trial coverage:

Fox:
http://fox13now.com/on-air/live-stream-2/

WAT:
http://wildabouttrial.com/martin-macneill-live-stream.html

Radar-On-Line:
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2013/10/live-stream-trial-doctor-martin-macneill-murder-beauty-queen-wife-michele/

ABC:
http://abcnews.go.com/live  (You might have to select the trial from the little boxes you will see to the left of your screen.)

And:

Join us in live chat!  
http://www.realitychatter.com/h10-chat
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:49 pm


Notes from Nov. 1


Jury is now present

David Cragun, MD

  • Interventional Cardiologist
  • all manifestations of heart disease; treating and managing patients
  • Reviewed ER notes; autopsy; Dr. Welch's notes/report; labs, EKG, Dr. Thompson's notes, ME's reports
  • He's formed an opinion based on chart reviews and detailed reports; common and accepted practice
  • His training includes drug/toxicology training; seminars; Univ. of AZ
  • Effects of drugs on the heart is common knowledge in the field
  • Dose affects how meds affect the heart
  • Myocarditis is inflammation of heart muscle (commonly viral); can lead to heart failure, arrhathmia; metabolic (drugs) can cause this; lack of oxygen
  • Etiology means cause of another disorder
  • Myocarditis usually diagnosed clinically; lab reports, MRI; biopsy (not used much anymore); autopsy; most common way to diagnose:  clinical history; imaging tests, angiogram to exclude other possibilities
  • Symptoms:  shortness of breath; chest pain; swelling in ankles

  • Asked by detective to review the case and autopsy findings (mild myocarditis)
  • Degree of findings did not necessarily suggest she should have had a lethal event
  • She had no symptoms related to myocarditis
  • Lack of symptoms and mild condition; chance of life-threatening event would be very rare
  • Bloodwork looked very normal; BNP (hormone made by heart muscle; hers was in low/normal range); should have been higher if death was heart related
  • protein indicating some heart damage was slightly elevated; likely due to resuscitation efforts
  • If Myocarditis was cause, he would have expected that protein to be much higher
  • lack of symptoms make it very unlikely myocarditis presented significant risk

  • Previous EKGs looked normal
  • QTC is amount of time heart takes to discharge/recharge
  • If he did recent EKG on Michele, and results were same as previous results, he would not have been concerned that she was at risk
  • In Mar, 2007, her QTC was 476; slightly prolonged; not significant; very minute risk
  • QTCs vary from time to time; can change from one minute to the next
  • high blood pressure can be a silent killer; no symptoms
  • Valium, Ambien, Phenergan, Oxycodone found in her system
  • Effect of those on her heart, phenergan can change the QTC; can prolong the interval


Cross:

  • He would have felt comfortable prescribing phenergan based on her condition
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:58 pm


Dr. Joshua A. Perper


  • Speciality is forensic pathology
  • Was Chief ME in Broward County, FL; has been retired for two years
  • He has a medical degree, and law degree
  • 40 years experience in pathology
  • Clinical Professor of pathology at several universities
  • Has been published in peer-reviewed journals
  • (missed some details due to feed issues)
  • Member of various associations
  • He was in court yesterday and heard Dr. Grey's testimony
  • only 4 manners of death:  natural, accidental, suicide or homicide; if can't prove which one; it's undetermined
  • limitations as to what he can do in a case is determined by state laws

  • Oct/Nov 2011 was asked to perform evaluation of this case
  • Reviewed microscopic tissue slides; autopsy report; toxicology report; blood lab results
  • Slides of tissue samples were from heart, lung, kidney, liver; same slides reviewed by Dr. Frikke, and Dr. Grey
  • Prior to surgery, she had blood drawn; reviewed those lab results
  • Michele died as a result of drowning; had drugs on board that could have contributed to her death
  • Looked very carefully at slides of heart (water is removed from specimen; sliced very thin which can be stained to see differences)
  • Showing doctor pictures of tissue slides
  • He's giving very detailed info on how he processes/examines the slides
  • Showing slide of heart tissue; noting discolorations; several small scars
  • Showing slide with different magnification; shows same scarring
  • shows no infiltration of inflammatory cells which you'd see in mild myocarditis
  • Showing slide at much higher magnification; shows muscle fibers and nuclei inside that fiber; no acute inflammatory cells of any significance; no myocarditis in those cells

  • His opinion is that he didn't find any evidence of myocarditis
  • He determined drowning:  finding her in water doesn't mean she drowned; one of the mechanisms of drowning is a need to breath (if underwater); water inhaled reaches lungs; blood in lungs absorbs water; dilutes chemicals in blood; can be fatal; in drowning, you have to have this dilution of blood
  • reports from resuscitation say during chest compressions, water was expelled  (4 cups the first time, 3 cups the second time; almost half a gallon); at hospital, they drained airway, discolored (bloody) water and foam came out (missed why it would be bloody)
  • objection - morning recess


jury is not present
Spencer's objection; Dr. has done extensive research that has not been shared in discovery; comparison to previous lab test results; no fair notice of that; nothing in his report of his evaluation of drowning; lab tests.  This doctor was made available to defense after defense's experts had submitted their reports. Judge asking witness to profer testimony outside presence of jury


Dr. Perper retaking the witness stand.

  • two sets of lab test results
  • # of red blood cells tested (from three samples, taken on Jan. 22, 2003, Mar 30, 2007 (prior to surgery), 4/11/2007 at hospital)
  • second set, same dates, tested blood chemistry (sodium, potassium, calcium, etc.)
  • 2003 and 2007 results are congruent; stable, no changes, no variation - baseline
  • Then the results from day at hospital, which shows changes (due to treatment); 20% dilution of blood; corresponding decrease in components in the blood
  • Decline of those components was much more than 20%; decline, therefore, is not just due to fluids given therapeutically during resuscitation, therefore were from drowning
  • They are reviewing testimony from preliminary hearing
  • Judge wants to see a copy of his written report
  • Prosecutor discussing law with regard to discovery; there was discussion at prelim about dilution of blood
  • Spencer arguing that at prelim, he only mentioned sodium manifested dilution; now his opinion is so different


Judge called recess so he can consider argument and rule

jury is not present
Judge giving his ruling:  defense objections that they were not given fair notice; alternative objection is that his analysis is not accepted as standard by the industry.  Dr. Perper issued a written report, and was made available to cooperatively consult with defense.  Constitutes notice.  Even if state failed to comply with notice, the remedy is not exclusion; remedy would be continuance to give defense time to prep.  Reviewed Dr. Perper's report and prelim testimony; satisfied that notice that has been given is sufficient.

Regarding Dr. Perper's methodology is not widely accepted; objection sustained; need to lay further foundation

Jury is now present
Dr. Perper, continued

  • Back to lab results
  • 2003, 2007 (before surgery) comparison showed no differences; provided baseline
  • She received fluids at 20% of blood volume during resuscitation; on April 11, her dilution was much higher than 20%, therefore can't be accounted for by fluids administered
  • method widely accepted
  • Drowning can affect dilution of blood; excessive water would further dilute the blood
  • Protein level was twice as high on April 11 as it was 10 days earlier, which exceeds what it would have been from fluids during resuscitation
  • Elements which were markedly diluted; sodium and calcium were not diluted, but she received both of those during resuscitation; other elements were more diluted than they should have been from fluids administered
  • Inhalation of water would explain those high levels
  • If someone inhales water, it's not swallowed; goes into the airway; fills the air chambers; walls of those chambers are very thin with very fine blood vessels (capillaries); water rushes from air chambers through thin walls into the blood
  • Drugs would be equally diluted; can not state magnitude of dilution
  • Other factors that indicate drowning is that during resuscitation, during chest compressions, there was regurgitation of substantial amounts of water (first 4 cups, then 3)
  • Airway was drained when she got to the hospital, there was water there
  • Weight of lungs was increased
  • Original autopsy contradicts itself; only air in air chambers, but water in her airway
  • Noted pulmonary edema; means fluid in airways; yet didn't see fluid in the lungs
  • Some amount of pulmonary edema can be accounted for by drowning

  • Arrhathmia is irregularly heartbeat; electrocardiogram would show missing or irregular heartbeat; no clinical evidence of this
  • There were small scars in the heart, and hypertension; could have triggered an arrhathmia, but that can't be confirmed or denied
  • Arrhathmia can not be determined after death (heart has stopped beating)
  • Opinion of drowning is with reasonable medical certainty; blood dilution; component differences from previous blood tests
  • No opinion on manner of death; undetermined; a lot of suspicious evidence
  • He wrote a book called "When doctors kill" - objection:  foundation, relevance; approach; sustained

  • Core body temperature can help determine Time of Death (TOD); interval for possible TOD was after phone call and before 11:30;  2.5 hours range
  • Body temp at hospital was 1 degree less than normal; body temp depends on body temp at TOD, environment temp, water temp, and other factors
  • Usually drop in temp after death is 1 degree (Celsius) per hour.  Could be 1.5 or 2 hours.


Recess for lunch; resume at 1 p.m.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:10 pm


Jury is not present


Housekeeping issue:  Mr. Spencer:  discussing part of an upcoming witness' (inmate?)testimony he wants to be excluded; Pros. asking for discussion later; Judge wants to see where we get to today in testimony

Jury is now present

Dr. Perper, continued

Cross:

  • Defense reviewing what he was hired for
  • Had appeared on Nancy Grace in Dec. 2010; he stated at that time that he didn't have all the information; he didn't have the case file
  • He concluded to NG that original Utah State ME was wrong and that she died of drowning, based on very limited information
  • Discussion on NG about CPR; NG said all that water aspirated must have meant that MM didn't do CPR; he agreed
  • Spencer saying that MM did CPR at the scene with neighbors; neighbors did compressions
  • Dr. believes she aspirated water after she was moved into bedroom
  • Some period of time before water was expelled; contradicts what he said on NG; saying his info was limited at that time

  • 10-11 months later, he was retained on the case; been paid somewhere between $10K-$14K; hasn't been compensated yet for his testimony
  • Received new info as recently as this summer
  • Received toxicology report later
  • At prelim hearing, he indicated that those drugs appeared to be at therapeutic dose; not the cause of death, but contributed
  • Also at prelim, said several things were missed during autopsy (can't understand witness' medical terms)
  • Believed there was water in the lung (heavier than normal, due to congestion)
  • At prelim, congestion was not by itself significant; mentioned fluid in her stomach as being more significant; Spencer said he relied on officer's report of how much fluid she threw up
  • Spencer saying officer didn't know how much water was expelled
  • Spencer demonstrating pouring water from bottle into another container, showing that it's hard to determine how much was poured; witness saying looks like a significant amount; can't determine exact amount
  • Some people are more accurate as estimating amounts

  • Showing chest x-ray taken on 4/11; shows normal; no infiltrates; no abnormalities with the lungs; no evidence of acute disease
  • doesn't negate pulmonary edema
  • x-ray did not show that there was some enlargement of the heart; x-ray may not show subtle things like that; sometimes it doesn't detect edema
  • In his review of autopsy, he found evidence of hypertension in kidney that Dr. Frikke didn't find; witness asking to review autopsy report; she identified changes in arteries, but didn't include that in her diagnosis
  • He diagnosed something different (can't make out the medical term)
  • Liver findings - Dr. Frikke didn't identify the full damage to the liver; he discovered something different in microscopic testing
  • Spencer saying that slices taken for microscopic slides can show variability
  • Witness is saying they are the original slides from the autopsy or a cut that is identical to those taken at autopsy; not sure which is true; cannot exclude that he got different cuts

  • Spencer saying Michele had firm stool in her colon; Dr. says that doesn't mean she was constipated
  • Dr. said previously that amounts of drugs was "small", within a therapeutic range; true
  • Back to dilution; going over prelim testimony about sodium, calcium levels
  • Red blood cells don't contain nuclei
  • After death, potassium leaks out of cell into plasma; red blood cell is integrated; fairly quickly, but it's variable
  • This won't happen within 15 minutes of death, as Spencer thinks
  • Can't determine calcium due to this process
  • With drowning, those cells can break apart and release potassium
  • The lab samples were taken after this process had already happened (hemorrized?)
  • Spencer saying the time the blood was drawn is not known
  • Dr. has the times; Spencer ignoring because ER doctor said he didn't know
  • Dr. can't make any determinations from liver enzymes
  • no autopsy signs of drowning?  No, he disagrees; dilution, and elements that don't break up (protein, platelets)
  • Spencer implying she had a virus
  • Sheer speculation that she had a virus or illness that caused this hemolysis (process described above)
  • he had stated that death was approx. within an hour of the time she arrived at the hospital

  • Temperatures:  36.2C in 2003; Jan. 22, 2001, temp was 36; on same day, different time, 36.3; later it was 36; then 35.5 (that temp is less than when she arrived at the hospital)
  • More temps:  4/04/2007:  98.2F (36.8C), 98, 96.6 (35.9), 4/03:  96.4 (35.8), 96.8 (36), 96 (35.6)
  • Different conditions can affect temp, including environment, if in water, etc.
  • 4/03:  96.2 (35.7) same temperature at time admitted to hospital on 4/11
  • Postmortem lividity doesn't appear to that extent in half an hour
  • Spencer said the time of lividity noted is not recorded
  • Spencer saying Dr's making assumption; witness said no assumption; ER said lividity was present
  • In an article he wrote, he said lividity can be present with 25 mins.; contradicts what he said today

  • Discussion of cut on her head; he wasn't aware that was an incision from surgery; he thought it might be a laceration f(rom a fall or surgery; unable to say which)
  • At prelim; drugs were not cause of death but might have played role
  • doubts the drugs could have caused impairment is what he said during prelim
  • Now, he doesn't know the true concentration of drugs due to dilution; doesn't know initial level
  • Diluted to a significant degree (50% higher); dilution was different for different components
  • Significant dilution beyond what she was administered
  • Spencer bringing up postmortem redistribution
  • Witness; your questions are so complicated I can't answer yes or no
  • Dilution decreases concentration of blood in body; redistribution only applies to blood inside the heart
  • redistribution would take place after dilution
  • drugs show different levels of redistribution
  • Now talking about lymphocytes increased; can occur from viral infections; yes, but also associated with drowning; he didn't say that at prelim; he said no evidence of viral infection
  • At prelim, she died primarily of drowning, with possible natural (heart) contributory factors


Re-direct:

  • What happened is a fact; what a person believes, is a belief; may or may correspond to reality
  • He operates under reasonable degree of medical certainty
  • In prelim hearing, he mentioned sodium, calcium, and other components
  • Drug use prior to death can affect body temperature
  • EMTs said they didn't look for lividity
  • Lividity was significant at ER
  • If CPR performed effectively after drowning, compressions should cause regurgitation of water
  • Michele drowned within a reasonable certainty and beyond


Re-cross:

  • vomiting requires person to be alive; reflexes have to be present
  • didn't know if it was actual vomiting, vs. regurgitation
  • still believes the manner of death is undetermined


Re-re-direct:

  • regurgitation of water was due to compression



Jury Questions:

  • Would the use of CNS depressant drugs raise or lower body temp:  depends on drug
  • Could the dilution of blood be explained by a natural filling of the airway with water and subsequent resuscitation efforts:  unclear question; there's no natural flooding of water in the airway


Defense follow-up:

  • oxycodone may lower body temp; depends on the amounts; has to be significant amount


Pros. follow-up

  • We don't know Michele's body temperature at TOD



Tuesday is election day; starting at 10 a.m. that day to give jury time to vote

Court is in recess
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:13 pm


jury is not present


Tuesday, witnesses include Spencer Canon; inmate 4, Jason Pourier, inmates 2, and 1, and Jim Robinson, investigator; that may wrap the state's case

Objections under rule 404 with respect to inmates:  Defense:  Inmate #3 would indicate that he had conversation with MM and asked MM if he had killed his wife, MM said no, later use of the word bitch; that should be excluded under 404 and 403; other issue to be addressed is how does he ask questions of these inmate witnesses about other inmates?  All the federal inmates may have had some interaction with each other; Judge said State should have pictures of inmates with their witness number and ask if they know that person

Defense:  Inmate 4 also used word bitch; wants that excluded

State:  referring to Michele as bitch is intrinsic; statements made years afterwards (2011/2012)

Judge:  hard to show intrinsic that many years later

State:  impeaches his prior statements that he cared about Michele; no evidence his opinion has changed; Michele didn't do anything after her death to make MM angry; corroborates other inmates' testimony

Judge:  creates a coherence of narrative for state

Defense:  MM state of mind 5 years later is irrelevant; corroboration doesn't add anything

Judge:  What are the proper non-character purposes?

State:  intent to kill; state of mind; corroboration

Judge will consider over the weekend; be there 15 mins. early on Tuesday to hear his ruling

State:  two prior rulings that excluded evidence; door has been opened; asking for that evidence to be allowed

One is Sabrina; what else MM said to her; "families are forever"; implies he cared for his family; excluded evidence is about kicking older daughters out; not the family man he professed to be; considered giving the younger children away; should be allowed to refute the "families are forever" statement

State:  letter of recommendation that MM forged; opens door to other fraudulent acts without Alexis; refutes impeachment of Alexis

Defense:  Sabrina's statements were gratuitous; not solicited; letter:  shouldn't open door because certification of application was that everything submitted was correct; she answered in a way they didn't predict; she was unaware of that letter

State:  forgery; contemplated assumption of risk taken by defense about letter of rec.; defense asked leading question about submitting a false letter of rec;

Defense:  "families are forever" statement is not helpful to defense; witnesses are unpredictable; tried really hard not to open any doors

Judge:  State moves to introduce evidence previously excluded because defense opened the door; State contends that illiciting statement from Sabrina "families are forever" opens the door; it should be able to introduce evidence MM kicked out the older daughters on June 8, 2007; proposed the younger children be given away to Bledsoes who live out of state; state also argues that by impeaching Alexis' character for truthfulness by specific instance of conduct (untruthful letter of rec) that defense opened the door to acts of fraud committed by MM on his own.  Defense argues is didn't intentionally solicit info to open doors; tried to keep those doors closed; re Sabrina, statement was volunteered; couldn't have predicted Alexis' response that she never saw it.

Not persuaded that "families are forever" statement opens the door; remains inadmissible
Re: fraudulent letter:  context in which that comes in is important; Alexis placed her character at issue; probed for truthfulness; defense lived with her answer; not persuaded that defense has opened the door to go after non-witness's character (defendant)

Denied the state's renewed motion; will take under advisement 404B issues re: inmates


Court is in recess until 9:45 a.m. on Tuesday (15 mins. early to go over judge's ruling before jury gets there at 10)
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by CuriousPortlander on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:33 pm

tesstruhart wrote:Hi Folks, been away from here for a long while.  Had to recover from JA.  I just started watching this trial.  I am not familiar with all the facts, but it does seem that the family is against this man but how about the facts....do they support that so far?
Hi, tesstruhart  

Welcome back!

Michele's family's persistence (specifically her daughters and sister) is what got this case re-examined, so yes, they are against him.  So far, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence against him.  I'm in the process of compiling a list of that evidence that I will post either this weekend or later next week.  There's no smoking gun, and the ME has classified the manner of death as "undetermined", so I think that's the biggest hurdle that  the state has.  The state still has more witnesses to put on the stand; they said this afternoon that they may wrap up their case mid-next week.  I'm guessing they are saving their strongest witnesses to end with.  Stay tuned!
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:34 pm

Published on Nov 1, 2013



Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 10 - Part 1




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 10 - Part 2




Martin MacNeill Trial - Day 10 - Part 3


http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123/videos
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

Post by Freckles on Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:17 am

Trouble trying to post today. Sigh...
These links are interesting.
Not sure if this is ADA in the one vid or a child actress standing in for her but listening to her voice is very moving.

http://callsforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/martin-macneill-murder-trial-day-9/

http://youtu.be/hxlHAdYb_hs

http://youtu.be/WcG9dgvztME
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Tricia's True Crime Radio tonight, 11/3/13

Post by Ann - Tx on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:14 am


Tonight Tricia's True Crime Radio show should be really interesting.  Among her guests is reporter Ben Winslow with FOX13 in Salt Lake City, Utah!  Ben has been reporting on the trial and tweeting.  

Tricia lives in Utah and she did plan to attend some of the trial.  Don't know if she was able to attend this week.  
~~~~~

Tune in at Link (below) at 8 p.m. Eastern/7 p.m. Central Standard Time tonight (11/3/13):

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2013/11/04/tricias-true-crime-radio-sunday-night-8-pm-eastern
Blog Talk Radio:  Tricia's True Crime Radio -- 11/3/13


TRICIA'S TRUE CRIME RADIO SUNDAY NIGHT 8 PM EASTERN

WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE MURDER TRIAL OF MARTIN MACNEILL? IT IS ONE BIZARRE MURDER CASE BEING TRIED IN UTAH COUNTY AND JOINING US TO DISCUSS THE TWISTS AND TURNS IS FOX TV'S BEN WINSLOW. ALSO JOINING US THE INCREDIBLE WOMAN BEHIND COURT CHATTER.COM AND MORE.
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Re: Michele MacNeill Found Deceased 4/11/07, Martin Macneill Charged With Murder

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