George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:53 pm

KZ,
Sharing this with you.
This is the part of the reason why I believe TM was upright when shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCWxTwQwb0A&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:06 am

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/discovery9/fdle_reports_march.pdf

Page 18 deals with CCW application

Pages 3, 16, 18, etc. mention the State Atty General's involvement. Wonder why he chose to get involved?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:14 am

art tart wrote:I wonder what Brady material Baez is referring to in his letter to BDLR giving him 5 days for a response or Baez would release the information to the Defense. Brady material would help the Defense, not the State. Although more information was released concerning Serino, I wonder if the Brady information has not yet been released.

Could the Brady material be for Serino?
IF there is a further investigation into the SPD and their 'handling' of this case, could the Brady material be for Serino regarding his involvement? (IIRC, Serino 'told' witnesses what they 'thought' they heard). Sorry, no link.
Why did Serino choose to hire Baez and not use the same attorney as the rest of SPD?
Chief Lee was fired, Wolfinger resigned due to a "conflict of interest", and I don't recall Bonaparte's role.
Serino sent two (?) drafts for Second Degree Murder, then changed it to Manslaughter...WHY???
All the while reportedly when 'there was not enough evidence to bring charges against GZ?'
Something don't smell right, IMO, and IMO, too much seems too fishy.
IMO, this case reeks of cover-up and corruption, JMO. Cell

ETA: What was the conflict of interest with Wolfinger anyway??
Did Wolfinger really serve in Vietnam with PapaZ?
Is his son Robert REALLY PapaZ's namesake/godchild?? crystal ball
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:12 am

justanopinion wrote:Sorry about the long post but going through the pdf and looking at things with new eyes...lol the old ones might have been weak!!

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Officer Meads statement says that on prior occasions when GZ had reported suspicious persons that he had lost sight of he (GZ) was on foot... (was he following them as well?)

Officer Serino statement says he doesn't know who the Air marshal is... and sees (redacted) taking pics with his phone... (this imply's two separate people)

Who is the Asian man who prepares a witness statement.. has the plastic bag for LE... and is inside the police crime scene tape contaminating evidence? Note***on the crime scene contamination log the only witness is Joe Manolo listed... Is this the Asian man?

O'steen and Brett interview... woman being interviewed says she heard "normal" calls for help, horrifying calls for help and agonizing yelps" Could both TM and GZ been calling for help?

The Officer Tim Smith interview says GZ had a concealed weapons permit in his wallet!

Sabina's sons interview says that TM had only gone to the store while at the complex one other time...the thursday before he was killed. Hmmmmm maybe that is why he was looking around...maybe the time before was during the day and he was trying to figure out where he was and trying to get back home... might explain the route as well!! JMOO

Florida Department of Law Enforcement interview... woman states she saw a man with a white shirt on top... like when the man in cuffs had a hoodie on... she says she is confused because her memory of that night doesn't match... the interviewers say they are only concerned with what she saw that night... WTH??? that brings up a bunch of questions for me!!

Interview about the NWP with Investigator Jim Post and SA John Batchelor... Officer Wendy Dorval was the contact person for Zimmerman and (redacted) ... "It was told to watch, not to do take any action on your own, get away from the situation and call police"

The long interview with the male who had the porch light on.. says he saw the person with the black shirt on top... and the person with the white or red shirt on the bottom... (correct me if I am wrong... where does white and red look like the same colour??? )

interview done by SA Crosby and Inv Bob Veaudry... woman says she heard 2 people arguing... closes her window..tells husband about it hears gun shot while telling him.. looks out again and the man she saw kneeling over the other man is standing and talking with her husband... Wow that all happened fast... JMOO

interesting for me anyway.... witness takes 3 photos... flashlight near TM, TM's body and the back of GZs head... pics get downloaded to laptop.... he erases them off his phone.. shows the pics from the laptop and says he didn't edit in any way... If GZ had his face all smushed up like in the pics released recently... why would this guy not take a pic of that???? next statement is about SA David Lee getting the phone and confirming that there is only the 3 pics related to that night!! ???

The conceal and carry permit issued to GZ is dated November 7, 2009.

Wow on the day GZ was arrested he had a folding knife, three loaded magazines.. and his firearm in his rental car? My first thought was this guy is prep'd for war!! then the next statement is that of a gun dealer saying GZ wanted more...

FBI interview with Dorval 04/04/12 Dorval states that GZ had followed up with her about the description of a suspect in one of the burglaries in the neighbourhood... when she did not give details he went to the victims house and got the description... This paints a picture for me... of Zimmerman and what he saw his role as... JMOO JMOO MOO

Magnetico says she saw Zimmerman drive around the complex at night with the vehicle lights off ... and check down pathways with his flashlight late at night!! CREEPY!!! JMO

BBM-
BDLR mentions in last court date (IIRC, could be one prior, but I don't think so), TWO voices on tape!
You really have to listen, but I know I heard BDLR mention possibly two voices on the 911 tapes...

Why did it take two different sources almost THREE weeks to produce the pictures of GZ's injuries???
Funny, IIRC, they both seemed to 'forget' about the pictures they had taken!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:30 am

George Zimmerman's CCW

Thank you Ellejay!!!

Not a very legible copy. Wonder WHY???
Seems like somebody may not want anybody to be able to read it? JMO


http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf
--doc dump 1 ---CWP--page 181.
I acually posted an image!!! bounce
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 am

Freckles wrote:KZ,
Sharing this with you.
This is the part of the reason why I believe TM was upright when shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCWxTwQwb0A&feature=endscreen&NR=1



There is a clip of the video of Zimmerman's interview where he said he had to move his arm to avoid shooting his hand when he fired the shot.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:33 pm

According to the forensics, GZ grabbed TM by the front of the hoodie clasping both the hoodie and the shirt underneath. GZ then pulled the clothing out and down.

IMO, that would be impossible to do if TM was seated on GZ. Just not enough room for the transaction.

Where the bullet entered the clothing/chest makes it compelling for me to believe TM was standing. Perfect distance for the extended arm as GZ has demonstrated many, many times.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:45 pm

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Page 26 indicates direction TM was traveling.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 pm

Freckles wrote:http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Page 26 indicates direction TM was traveling.


Page 27:

"At 1916 hours, a 911 call placed by (redacted) was received where Zimmerman can be heard in the background frantically yelling for help. At 1917 hours a gunshot was heard in the background of the 911 call, and moments later officer Smith arrived on scene."

What evidence did Serino have to say with 100% degree of certainty that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help in the background?

Wasn't Serino contradicting himself when he was asking Zimmerman (while playing the 911 call recording) when exactly during that call was Trayvon covering his mouth and his nose with both hands?. During that interview you can hear another investigator saying that the screams for help were continuous.

In the same interview we can also hear Zimmerman saying to Serino (who was insisting that the voice was Zimmerman's) that the voice of the person screaming in the background was not his voice and that it didn't sound like him. He obviously contradicted Serino.

Perhaps this is the "Brady material" that Baez is referring to in his letter to the prosecution, it might be exculpatory "evidence" because Serino stated in the capias that it was Zimmerman (not Trayvon) who was screaming for help.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by DebFrmHell on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:21 pm

Freckles wrote:According to the forensics, GZ grabbed TM by the front of the hoodie clasping both the hoodie and the shirt underneath. GZ then pulled the clothing out and down.

IMO, that would be impossible to do if TM was seated on GZ. Just not enough room for the transaction.

Where the bullet entered the clothing/chest makes it compelling for me to believe TM was standing. Perfect distance for the extended arm as GZ has demonstrated many, many times.

Where are you getting that information from? Just curious.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:29 pm

http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-man-killed-trayvon-martin-wanted-be-cop-list

" He had a concealed-weapons permit to carry and patrolled his neighborhood while carrying his 9mm handgun.

STORY: For His Life! Witnesses Heard Trayvon Martin Screaming For Help Before He Was Killed

Zimmerman is an ideal candidate to identify with “Hero Syndrome,” an affliction related to people who seek heroism or recognition. It’s a syndrome associated with people who have a yearning for self-worth.

Once a criminal justice student and now captain of the neighborhood watch, Zimmerman wanted to be a hero. Here a few other things to know about the man who killed Trayvon Martin."
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:33 pm

Debfrmhll,
Check your links. Posted a few pages ago.
The holes in the shirt and the chest wound: in order to align these holes, the shirt had to be repositioned by pulling up and slightly over. When the holes align, the alignment is "perfect".

Would you have a different explanation as to how the holes got in the hoodie, the shirt and the chest and NOT aligned when first overlaid?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by justanopinion on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:57 am

off topic... well sort of.... stumbled across this and thought it was worth consideration ... depending on where you stand/sit who this person is changes...

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:24 am

George Zimmerman: Legal expert says docs may help defense!


The documents are several drafts of notes from the Sanford police detective who headed the investigation.

Legal expert Joy Ragan said that she has scoured over police reports and the indecision from charging investigators will play well for the defense.

“If we get to a jury, than this is great for the defense because the defense says that law enforcement couldn’t even figure it out. They’re going back and forth, is it manslaughter? Do they have self-defense? What’s going on here? And if law enforcement can’t figure it out, then there is a reasonable doubt,” said Ragan.

Serino has retained high profile Attorney Jose Baez, “I think that Detective Serino is a little bit afraid that he is going to be the fall guy in all of this. There has been some criticism about the way that he handled the investigation, maybe he overstepped the bounds. But he definitely had a different opinion than his supervisor and the local state attorney,” said Ragan.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/1/9/george_zimmerman_leg.html

Just as Baez told BDLR, the information is Brady Material and would most likely help the Defense.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:44 pm

" “I think that Detective Serino is a little bit afraid that he is going to be the fall guy in all of this. There has been some criticism about the way that he handled the investigation, maybe he overstepped the bounds. But he definitely had a different opinion than his supervisor and the local state attorney,” said Ragan.

A lawyer for Trayvon Martin's family said she feels someone pressured Serino to change his recommendation."

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/1/9/george_zimmerman_leg.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:45 pm

“This seems like a CYA from the Sanford Police Department. They did not do a good job. They did not do a thorough investigation in this case. If they would have, George Zimmerman would have been arrested that night or very soon after,” Jackson said."

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/1/8/zimmerman_lead_inves.html
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:53 pm

Of course Jackson is one of the handler's that promoted the racial agenda in this case calling GZ a racist murderer and claiming he shot TM in cold blood or shot TM because he was black.

Natalie Jackson has an agenda to promote, I have no doubt she will promote it till the end, she is NOT an objective legal opinion in this case imo. Criminal attorney's without an agenda or representing the family, imo, are the opinions I am interested in, not lies promoted by the handler's.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 pm

“If we get to a jury, than this is great for the defense because the defense says that law enforcement couldn’t even figure it out."

This might show incompetence on the part of the police, or worse.

I believe that legal experts are disregarding the fact that other agencies had to get involved in the investigation into Trayvon's death because of the Sanford Police Department and the Seminole State Attorney adamant refusal to charge Zimmerman, and those agencies found there was sufficient evidence to support probable cause to arrest him and to charge him with second degree murder.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:51 pm

Richard Hornsby, Criminal Defense Attorney was interviewed by Trisha, owner of webslueth's on Sunday Blog talk radio, on the GZ case.

Here is some of the interview and the questions Trisha ask Hornsby:


Question: Trisha ask about SYG Hearing in April.

Richard answers:

The SYG Hearing is a mini trial, non jury trial in which the Defense tries to prove the self defense claim of GZ.

The State or Defense can appeal since it is a judgement call made by Judge Nelson.

Hornsby says from his experience from having trials in front of Judge N., she isn't the type of Judge to dismiss the case on Self Defense, NOR, does he think any other Judge with the exception of retired Judge Eaton would either, he thinks Judge N will kick it to a jury.

A politically charged case.

Question:
Trisha ask the outcome of the case if tried by a jury.

Hornsby answers:

Pretty confident it would be an "acquittal." He states that at a minimum if a jury can't decide, under the laws in Fla., the case is dismissed, (or an acquittal.)

Question: Politically charged?

Hornsby answers:

In the beginning, the racial issue was the driving force, a lot of people thought an overzealous white guy or a white guy shot a black guy because he was black.

The law states GZ had the right to defend himself.

Question: What about voice calling for help.

Hornsby answers:

It might be excluded from trial.

It may not come in as the families at one point couldn't determine who was yelling for help, AT BEST, it's a wash if it does come in.

Question: WHAT IF GZ was beating up on TM.

Hornsby answsers:

There are NO WHAT IFS in trial.

There is NO physical evidence supporting the theory that GZ was beating up on TM.

The evidence supports GZ was beaten up, the pictures are coming in showing that, the autopsy photos are too coming in.

Question: Trisha ask about the racial slur, "coon," Trisha claims she heard "coon" on the 911 tape.

Richard answers:

I disagree,, I didn't hear the word "coon," I believe it's whatever you won't to believe it is. The State can't prove definitely, so it may not come in.

Question: Trisha ask what does the Prosecution have.

Hornsby answers:

many were angered GZ was told to return to car.

Prosecutor was brought in to push the case forward.

It's a weak case.

Can't tell who was yelling for help.

Question: What about Civil unrest?

Hornsby answers:

At the beginning of the case, I thought so as there were charges of racism made, BUT, since more evidence has come out the less sympathetic the public is. Of course, there is sympathy for the family for losing their son no matter what the circumstances.

Since more evidence has come out, the National Media is less interested in following the case.

Question: Will the Pay Pal information come in?

Hornsby answers:

There are no legal grounds for it to come in. In the State of Fla., 2 things have to be proven:

That GZ was a known liar in his community.
That GZ was convicted of dishonesty relating to a crime.

Neither can be proven, so it doesn't come in.

Question: Trisha ask about security company suing GZ.

Hornsby answers: It was an oral contract.

If the Judge finds GZ paid the security company a fair amount, it could be dismissed. IF the Judge finds GZ owes more money, he could pay more.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2013/01/07/websleuths-radio

http://www.richardhornsby.com/about/


Last edited by art tart on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:33 am; edited 4 times in total

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:56 pm

Alessandra shared:

I believe that legal experts are disregarding the fact that other agencies had to get involved in the investigation into Trayvon's death because of the Sanford Police Department and the Seminole State Attorney adamant refusal to charge Zimmerman, and those agencies found there was sufficient evidence to support probable cause to arrest him and to charge him with second degree murder.

And that is a case that has yet to be determined at trial, the racial elements charged by the handler's was a big factor in my opinion. This case IS NOT about race as the Handler's mantra suggested. It shows there was a lot of indecision, a lot of Criminal Analyst thought the case was an overcharge of 2nd degree murder in the case, ALL the burden is on the State.

There is so much reasonable doubt at this point, unless the State has a bucket load of evidence to convict GZ they haven't released, imo, GZ will walk or there will be a hung jury.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:53 pm

art tart wrote:Of course Jackson is one of the handler's that promoted the racial agenda in this case calling GZ a racist murderer and claiming he shot TM in cold blood or shot TM because he was black.

Natalie Jackson has an agenda to promote, I have no doubt she will promote it till the end, she is NOT an objective legal opinion in this case imo. Criminal attorney's without an agenda or representing the family, imo, are the opinions I am interested in, not lies promoted by the handler's.
Anyone who has a vested interest in the matter is a handler.
They are putting forth their opinion to the exclusion of other opinions.
IMO, that makes them a handler.
To state those who have opinions different than yours are handlers but you aren't is to show a particular bias.

Handlers:
GZ' brother is a handler with his current tweets;
Baez and MOM are handlers proven with their media whoring.
Frank Taaffe is a handler with his youtube video walk-through and his DUI interview in which he discusses the Martin killing.
Mark Osterman is a handler with his book publication stating he "knows it all" and is a "secret confidante " of GZ and SZ.
Joseph Bruce Oliver is a handler with his media interviews in which he professes to know the inner workings of GZ' brain and heart.

Each of these individuals have presented lop-sided opinions of GZ.
Each have FAILED to acknowledge the true George Zimmerman:
A man with many past criminal actions.
This is what qualifies these persons as "handlers" for GZ.

(Heck, do they even acknowledge GZ murdered TM?
Early on, they were in DENIAL of what GZ admitted to!)

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:54 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:“If we get to a jury, than this is great for the defense because the defense says that law enforcement couldn’t even figure it out."

This might show incompetence on the part of the police, or worse.

I believe that legal experts are disregarding the fact that other agencies had to get involved in the investigation into Trayvon's death because of the Sanford Police Department and the Seminole State Attorney adamant refusal to charge Zimmerman, and those agencies found there was sufficient evidence to support probable cause to arrest him and to charge him with second degree murder.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:28 pm

Freckles said:

Anyone who has a vested interest in the matter is a handler.

This is untrue Freckles and denying the FACTS doesn't make it so.

The ONLY Handler's I know of in this case are the Handler's/Crump/Julison/Jackson/ the list is long of who all it encompasses that have a vested interest in this case and promoted an agenda, and dispenses legal advice to the family on this case. The families Handler's PROMOTED a RACIAL element that was a LIE, their mantra. There is also a financial motivation of the Family Handler's if there is a Civil Suit and a Judgement awarded. Casey Anthony's family too had handler's to set up their Media Blitz, negotiate their appearance fees and advise them on the lines of commiting perjury, etc.

Tracy said when asked about the pin for Trayvon's phone, "I will have to ask my attorney." He could have said, "I will have to ask one of my Handler's" as many of the Handler's are attorney's for the family. I know of NO OTHER parties that are handling anyone in this case and dispensing legal advice etc. except for Handler's for the family.

You complained and complained that I had not said GZ had handler's. I answered you EXLAINING to you that GZ's friends, relatives, etc. have NO LEVEL OF EXPERTISE in any capacity, they voice opinions just like Trayvon's family are NOT handler's, they too have NO LEVEL OF EXPERTISE in any capacity.

Handler's in this case have disbursed legal advice to the family and the handler's also encompasses a media expert, a computer expert, a public relations person, attorney's who ALL have expertise in their professional field.

You can call a dog a cat if you want, denying the facts doesn't change anything. Layman offering their opinions on the case are not handler's and NONE of those you would like to claim are handler's, are. They have NO EXPERTISE and are NOT attorney's, they do NOT advise GZ on anything.

GZ has 2 Defense Attorney's, he doesn't have handler's.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by colsnipe on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:32 pm

As far as I know based on the information release so far there is a major discrepancy that has not been addressed so far.

According to GZ, he spotted TM in front of Franks house. It was in front of the the club house that the 911 call was made. According to Frank, people cut across his proprety to avoid “coding in”.

According to DD, she heard TM say that he had just coded in.
If he had coded in, and was according to both GZ and DD he was near the club house, how could he have been in front of franks house. It is out of the way.

According to TMs Dad’s Girlfriend Son…tm had one been out of the complex once before to go to the local store. It is quite likely he did not know about franks property.

Am I missing something here?

As for coding in, according to numerous videos posted to youtube, it does not appear that you have to code in to access each property. Only a standard lockset with a key; not a code.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:58 am

AIS Lawsuit Filed against MOM, GZ & SZ

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9tY6Ztj1ZHac0dWWFQ2X3VPa2s/edit?pli=1

Exhibit D-Looks like MOM might have had AIS trying to dig up 'dirt' on Trayvon along with the 'security services.' Apparently a daughter of a client may have bought pot from him, but it must not have panned out, otherwise I'm sure MOM would have that ALL over the news, IMO.

Looks like MOM doesn't keep his word too well either, IMO. (See Exhibit I)

Exhibit I-MOM states in a text on July 20th "I will make sure check gets to ur office on Monday"
Apparently AIS is still WAITING for Monday...

Exhibit L-George objects to the addition of any finance charges without his PRIOR APPROVAL!

Item #73-MOM personally hired AIS and personally promised to pay AIS, claiming that this was necessary to retain the attorney client privilege.

Exhibit L-MOM requests that the proper party, GZ, be identified as far as any outstanding payments. Seems like so much for attorney client privilege, MOM, now the bill is unpaid and overdue?? IMO

Also, Orlando Sentinel has this information, but has YET to make it available to their readers...
Wonder WHY??? Sorry, no link.


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:19 am

colsnipe wrote:As far as I know based on the information release so far there is a major discrepancy that has not been addressed so far.

According to GZ, he spotted TM in front of Franks house. It was in front of the the club house that the 911 call was made. According to Frank, people cut across his proprety to avoid “coding in”.

According to DD, she heard TM say that he had just coded in.
If he had coded in, and was according to both GZ and DD he was near the club house, how could he have been in front of franks house. It is out of the way.

According to TMs Dad’s Girlfriend Son…tm had one been out of the complex once before to go to the local store. It is quite likely he did not know about franks property.

Am I missing something here?

As for coding in, according to numerous videos posted to youtube, it does not appear that you have to code in to access each property. Only a standard lockset with a key; not a code.

Map (Click on image to enlarge)

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/frank-taaffe-address.jpg

You can see the location of Taaffe's house in relation to the clubhouse.

----------------------

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:31 am

colsnipe wrote:As far as I know based on the information release so far there is a major discrepancy that has not been addressed so far.

According to GZ, he spotted TM in front of Franks house. It was in front of the the club house that the 911 call was made. According to Frank, people cut across his proprety to avoid “coding in”.

According to DD, she heard TM say that he had just coded in.
If he had coded in, and was according to both GZ and DD he was near the club house, how could he have been in front of franks house. It is out of the way.

According to TMs Dad’s Girlfriend Son…tm had one been out of the complex once before to go to the local store. It is quite likely he did not know about franks property.

Am I missing something here?

As for coding in, according to numerous videos posted to youtube, it does not appear that you have to code in to access each property. Only a standard lockset with a key; not a code.

BBM-
IIRC, coding in, was for a front walk through gate. Thus, why some walked through the area by Taffee's.
I'm not sure if there was a coded gate for driving in as well or not.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:50 am

Wait one.

F Taaffe is the other 1/2 of the NW main program.
He and GZ are best of buds.
I know I had read early on how GZ was on the top street, the one crossing in front of FT's and the main gate, and that is where he FIRST saw TM. TM was supposedly walking down the street eye balling GZ WAY before the Club House or the main gate.

Dee Dee DID state TM had "coded in" and that WOULD be at the front gate! Wow. This means TM did NOT enter using FT's property but came in from the front gate--- the location closest and easiest to the store. Which makes sense. First, shortest distance; second, he had only been out of the area on foot just once according to Chad. He would NOT have known his way about let alone short cuts.

Originally, listening to some of the dissenters, I had considered a possibility the "coded in" referred to physical entry into the living units. That idea was tossed as it could not fit into the time allowance. Interesting re the lack of need for "coding in" at the residences. Cool

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:01 am

KimmyK wrote:AIS Lawsuit Filed against MOM, GZ & SZ

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9tY6Ztj1ZHac0dWWFQ2X3VPa2s/edit?pli=1

Exhibit D-Looks like MOM might have had AIS trying to dig up 'dirt' on Trayvon along with the 'security services.' Apparently a daughter of a client may have bought pot from him, but it must not have panned out, otherwise I'm sure MOM would have that ALL over the news, IMO.

Looks like MOM doesn't keep his word too well either, IMO. (See Exhibit I)

Exhibit I-MOM states in a text on July 20th "I will make sure check gets to ur office on Monday"
Apparently AIS is still WAITING for Monday...

Exhibit L-George objects to the addition of any finance charges without his PRIOR APPROVAL!

Item #73-MOM personally hired AIS and personally promised to pay AIS, claiming that this was necessary to retain the attorney client privilege.

Exhibit L-MOM requests that the proper party, GZ, be identified as far as any outstanding payments. Seems like so much for attorney client privilege, MOM, now the bill is unpaid and overdue?? IMO

Also, Orlando Sentinel has this information, but has YET to make it available to their readers...
Wonder WHY??? Sorry, no link.

Kimmy - This is the lawsuit for the monies the security company claims they are owed and have sued for.

imo, MOM/West were not digging up dirt on TM, they were doing their job, TM had a baggie in his possession at school that had weed residue in it and was included in one of the suspensions from school, TM had traces of THC in his system according to the autopsy report. It came from somewhere, was TM a user or a seller?

As far as the Orlando Sentinel, they reported the suit filed for monies the security company claims they are owed. This is merely a breakdown of the amount, in the articles run by all the local Orlando media, they stated the amount they are being sued for, I don't see anything sinister about it nor do I see this as important into the events of the evening of the tragedy.


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:31 am

art tart wrote:
KimmyK wrote:AIS Lawsuit Filed against MOM, GZ & SZ

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9tY6Ztj1ZHac0dWWFQ2X3VPa2s/edit?pli=1

Exhibit D-Looks like MOM might have had AIS trying to dig up 'dirt' on Trayvon along with the 'security services.' Apparently a daughter of a client may have bought pot from him, but it must not have panned out, otherwise I'm sure MOM would have that ALL over the news, IMO.

Looks like MOM doesn't keep his word too well either, IMO. (See Exhibit I)

Exhibit I-MOM states in a text on July 20th "I will make sure check gets to ur office on Monday"
Apparently AIS is still WAITING for Monday...

Exhibit L-George objects to the addition of any finance charges without his PRIOR APPROVAL!

Item #73-MOM personally hired AIS and personally promised to pay AIS, claiming that this was necessary to retain the attorney client privilege.

Exhibit L-MOM requests that the proper party, GZ, be identified as far as any outstanding payments. Seems like so much for attorney client privilege, MOM, now the bill is unpaid and overdue?? IMO

Also, Orlando Sentinel has this information, but has YET to make it available to their readers...
Wonder WHY??? Sorry, no link.

Kimmy - This is the lawsuit for the monies the security company claims they are owed and have sued for.

imo, MOM/West were not digging up dirt on TM, they were doing their job, TM had a baggie in his possession at school that had weed residue in it and was included in one of the suspensions from school, TM had traces of THC in his system according to the autopsy report. It came from somewhere, was TM a user or a seller?

As far as the Orlando Sentinel, they reported the suit filed for monies the security company claims they are owed. This is merely a breakdown of the amount, in the articles run by all the local Orlando media, they stated the amount they are being sued for, I don't see anything sinister about it.


BBM-
My intent was not anything 'sinister' regarding the OS, just that they have a copy of the lawsuit, and have been rather quiet about it, IMO.

They seem to be very slanted, as they have been referred to as the Orlando Zimintel(sp?) lately...Seems people are asking:
Is it for 'exclusives' with MOM or kickbacks?
(which I doubt since GZ is basically broke, or so they say)
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:57 am

Kimmy - shared -
BBM-
My intent was not anything 'sinister' regarding the OS, just that they have a copy of the lawsuit, and have been rather quiet about it, IMO.

They seem to be very slanted, as they have been referred to as the Orlando Zimintel(sp?) lately...Seems people are asking:
Is it for 'exclusives' with MOM or kickbacks?
(which I doubt since GZ is basically broke, or so they say)

KimmyK - LOL, I thought you were inferring to the OS as being deceitful. I like the OS, they were my first source of reading daily on KC's case, I thought they did a good job although I didn't always agree with them, LOL.

There has been a lot going on in KC's case, her appeal being heard on 4 lying charges, maybe they have been covering that instead. Too, imo, this is not really important unless someone wants to read why the bill is so high and the breakdown of the bill. Too, MOM stated this is confidential, maybe they have chosen not to publish the information if there is a confidentiality clause attached. (just speculating)









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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:37 pm

Report: Sanford cops initially wanted Zimmerman charged with 2nd-degree murder

They downgraded that to manslaughter

January 8, 2013|By Jeff Weiner and Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

~Snipped~

They reveal that Serino and his supervisors, made several changes but only two major ones.

The first was the change in the charges.

The second was a strongly-worded paragraph condemning Zimmerman's actions, pointing out that there was no need for a confrontation with Trayvon.

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."

In that same new paragraph, added in the third of the five drafts released Tuesday and left in each version thereafter, Serino and his bosses faulted Zimmerman for assuming that Trayvon was about to break into a home.

"Zimmerman … made it clear that he had already reached a faulty conclusion as to Martin's purpose for being in the neighborhood," the revised report says.

Ultimately, the revisions made no difference. A special prosecutor took over the case and had 29-year-old Zimmerman arrested on a charge of second-degree murder.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-01-08/news/os-george-zimmerman-serino-changes-20130108_1_investigator-chris-serino-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:26 pm



Frank Taaffe Orlando Sentinel Interview
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:17 pm

Alessandra shared:

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."

Alessandra - It was not illegal for GZ to get out of his truck, certainly a bad decision but he did NOTHING illegal. LE can certainly share their opinion, but factually, GZ did not break the law.

TM had reached Brandi's house and could have gone inside, ACCORDING to the STAR witness DeeDee. BUT! TM at this point has done nothing illegal either, thus far, UNTIL he made the decision to loop back around and give GZ a beat down. That is assault, a bad decision on TM's part.

LE didn't have this information UNTIL DeeDee finally shared it after she had visited w/Crump and a room full of people, Gutman, etc., ALL had this information before LE.

Hornsby said "it had angered some people that GZ DIDN'T stay in his truck," it angers me that TM didn't just go inside Brandi's home instead of deciding to leave and give a beat down to GZ.

It's just this simple:

GZ made a bad decision to get out of his truck, though not illegal.

TM made a bad decision to leave Brandi's once there and give GZ a beat down or assault. That is illegal, you can't attack anyone, ever, and it led to his death.

GZ knew LE was on their way, TM could have started a conversation w/GZ also instead of giving a beat down, he decided not to engage in conversation, TM is responsible for the decision he made to give the beat down.

Had TM not given the beat down and engaged in conversation, LE would have arrived and it would have been sorted out, he would have been alive today had he made this decision.


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Alessandra_Deux on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:12 pm

art tart wrote:
Alessandra shared:

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."

Alessandra - It was not illegal for GZ to get out of his truck, certainly a bad decision but he did NOTHING illegal. LE can certainly share their opinion, but factually, GZ did not break the law.

TM had reached Brandi's house and could have gone inside, ACCORDING to the STAR witness DeeDee. BUT! TM at this point has done nothing illegal either, thus far, UNTIL he made the decision to loop back around and give GZ a beat down. That is assault, a bad decision on TM's part.

LE didn't have this information UNTIL DeeDee finally shared it after she had visited w/Crump and a room full of people, Gutman, etc., ALL had this information before LE.

Hornsby said "it had angered some people that GZ DIDN'T stay in his truck," it angers me that TM didn't just go inside Brandi's home instead of deciding to leave and give a beat down to GZ.

It's just this simple:

GZ made a bad decision to get out of his truck, though not illegal.

TM made a bad decision to leave Brandi's once there and give GZ a beat down or assault. That is illegal, you can't attack anyone, ever, and it led to his death.

GZ knew LE was on their way, TM could have started a conversation w/GZ also instead of giving a beat down, he decided not to engage in conversation, TM is responsible for the decision he made to give the beat down.

Had TM not given the beat down and engaged in conversation, LE would have arrived and it would have been sorted out, he would have been alive today had he made this decision.


I would like to see the evidence that proves "TM made a bad decision to leave Brandi's once there ....."

Where are the documented facts to corroborate that Trayvon doubled back? I haven't seen anything other than assumptions, innuendos and conjectures. There is absolutely ZERO factual evidence to support that theory.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:17 pm

I hope you are not suggesting everyone should have stayed inside that evening to avoid a potential confrontation with GZ?

TM was not the burglar; TM simply walked in what GZ had claimed to be HIS turf and GZ did not recognize the right of TM to be there.
Why else was GZ so suspicious? Because GZ did NOT respect TM's right to be in the community.

Why else did GZ decide to leave the safety of his vehicle to FOLLOW TM? IF the situation was so severe GZ needed to call NEN, why would he not stay in the car?

NEN never asked GZ to obtain an address for them despite what GZ has stated. Did you hear NEN tell GZ they would not dispatch without an addy? Did GZ call NEN to give them an addy? Why not? Is it because that was NOT the purpose of GZ being outside the car?

Why else was GZ cruising about with a loaded gun?
Was GZ afraid the meatman at Target was going to attack him with a cleaver? No. It was NOT because of Target.

I seriously doubt GZ would have walked down a dark sidewalk at night to get an address! That is so impossible to believe. And GZ would not have walked anywhere in the dark without his gun. He has already told everyone just how paranoid he was living there; after all, he bought the gun and started NW BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, right? That is why he was carrying the gun. He wasn't carrying because of wanting to bag some rabbit; he wasn't carrying because of reports of bog snakes; he wasn't carrying because of rabid skunks. No. GZ stated he bought the gun because he was concerned with HOME BURGLARIES and GZ wanted to be prepared against home invasion. (Gun would not do him any good if a burglary took place and he was not present so I am calling this a home invasion.)

So just why did an armed GZ decide to leave the safety of the car and take a rainy night stroll down a sidewalk into the dark? IMO, GZ was WANTING to "prove" himself to the SPD and "worthy" of hire by them.

GZ lacks the mentality to be a peace officer.
It takes more than a gun to be a responsible member of law enforcement.
A trigger finger doesn't work and a rash judgment won't qualify.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:43 pm

Freckles shared:

I hope you are not suggesting everyone should have stayed inside that evening to avoid a potential confrontation with GZ?

Of course I haven't suggested that TM should have stayed inside, I stated that TM made a decision to give GZ a beat down, an illegal act of assault, TM could have avoided any confrontation and had a conversation, he chose not to, he chose to give a beat down and that's exactly what he did.

Freckles - I stay focused on what is legal and what is not legal, what is coming into the trial and what isn't, opinions don't come into criminal cases unless by experts usually, whether someone thinks GZ was a wannabe cop doesn't make any difference nor is it evidence, it is the evidence/facts that the jury is going to consider.

Just as Hornsby said in his interview w/Trisha from webslueth's, she ask: "what if GZ had beaten down TM."

Hornsby answered: There are no "what if's at trial," there is NO evidence that supports GZ gave TM a beat down."

That is an example of what doesn't come into court, I don't waste my time with "what ifs," nor do I try to imagine what TM or GZ were thinking, no one can know that but them.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:43 pm

art tart said"
clipped:
" I stated that TM made a decision to give GZ a beat down, an illegal act of assault, TM could have avoided any confrontation and had a conversation, he chose not to, he chose to give a beat down and that's exactly what he did."

I see nothing in the EVIDENCE to indicate TM made any decision to "beat down" anyone that night. I se NO evidence TM initiated any transaction with GZ that night.
In fact, TM did NOT injure GZ within an inch of his life as the GZ handlers would have the public believe in order to JUSTIFY GZ' actions. In fact, GZ is even seen casually brushing his nose with his finger during the interview. (Thought this was badly injured?)

Did GZ introduce HIMSELF? Did he say, "Hey! What are you doing? I am with NW !" No. In fact, GZ disobeyed NEN by FOLLOWING TM. And, he disobeyed NW instructions that state he is NOT to do patrols carrying a weapon. So I guess GZ can't claim he was NW at that time, can he? IF not, then why is he following TM?

As for whether or not you are are following any the legal aspects without injecting your own opinions, ie, emotions, I guess the opinion of the jury will dictate the truth of your statements, right?

Have a good night! study

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:54 pm

Freckles said:

I see nothing in the EVIDENCE to indicate TM made any decision to "beat down" anyone that night.


Freckles - The evidence that supports TM made a decision to beat down GZ is that there are witnesses that saw the altercation, TM astride GZ, GZ ask witnesses to call 911. The injuries show the beating. That is the EVIDENCE to support the fact that TM decided to give GZ a beat down, TM was in control of his decision making processes.

Did GZ introduce HIMSELF? Did he say, "Hey! What are you doing? I am with NW !" No. In fact, GZ disobeyed NEN by FOLLOWING TM. And, he disobeyed NW instructions that state he is NOT to do patrols carrying a weapon. So I guess GZ can't claim he was NW at that time, can he? IF not, then why is he following TM?

GZ did nothing illegal, it was not illegal for GZ to get out of his truck. TM could have easily introduced himself, and a conversation could have been started, TM chose to give a beat down, NOT engage in conversation. That is assault. You seem to want to blame GZ for everything, it is inexcusable TM beat GZ, who does that? Whether you accept it or not, it will be explained in court, it is assault. TM could have easily started a conversation which you blame GZ for not doing. I will be interested to see what excuses the State makes for the beating, BDLR has admitted to the altercation.

It doesn't matter how badly you think GZ was beaten or not beaten, GZ didn't have to lose consciousness in the altercation or continue to be beaten. That is a fact. GZ couldn't retreat, he was flat of his back having his head pounded.

As for whether or not you are are following any the legal aspects without injecting your own opinions, ie, emotions, I guess the opinion of the jury will dictate the truth of your statements, right?

The jury hopefully decides the case on the evidence presented, weighs the value of the evidence and makes a decision. The truth of my statements and opinions are made from the evidence, I nor anyone else can control or predict anything the jury decides.



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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:23 pm

Freckles - we'll just have to see how it all plays out, and more importantly, how it's presented, the way the State and Defense tell the story backed up with their evidence. I loved Jeff Ashton, Prosecutor in Caylee's case. I saw him as passionate and was the voice for Justice for Caylee, other's saw him as too aggressive and they didn't like him.

I was devastated at KC walking in her case, I still can't believe it, it's difficult to have to accept there will never be Justice for little Caylee. KC's case was a lot more complex than TM/GZ's case, so many experts, etc. involved in the case, the search for the remains, the lies, 2 autopsies, so much social media over an extended period of time. It all came down to the jury, it's unbelievable.

I understand your comments/thoughts, but I do know our thoughts and comments don't come in at trial. I can't for the life of me predict or forsee how the case is going to be presented. The good news is, the SYG Hearing in April is going to give us all a lot more insight into both the State and the Defense. Things that seem important to us sometimes don't make it into trial.


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:47 pm

'Stand Your Ground' Repeal Bill Filed
The law, which allows those who feel threatened to shoot back at assailants out in public, seized the national spotlight last year with the February shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Rep. Alan Williams, D-Tallahassee, filed the measure (HB 4009) on Wednesday.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/stand-your-ground-repeal-bill-filed

I have to agree with the saying..."If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Although, IMO something needs to be fixed when a man like GZ can follow a teen with a gun, start an altercation, shoot a kid dead, and then claim self defense. That is a system that is terribly screwed up, IMO.

Then you have GZ's brother RZ Jr on a twitter rant, who blames the blow up of the situation on racism, NOT GZ NOT BEING ARRESTED for 44-45 days! and then uses the the same bs again, IMO

Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
@FoxNews If membs of Congress who slandered GZdon't apologize on their own..I'll run myself & see2it theyR sanctioned4 race-baiting tactics

Really, RZ, SHUT UP ALREADY!!! You just make your brother LOOK even MORE guilty, IMO!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:48 pm

'Stand Your Ground' Repeal Bill Filed
The law, which allows those who feel threatened to shoot back at assailants out in public, seized the national spotlight last year with the February shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Rep. Alan Williams, D-Tallahassee, filed the measure (HB 4009) on Wednesday.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/stand-your-ground-repeal-bill-filed

I have to agree with the saying..."If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Although, IMO something needs to be fixed when a man like GZ can follow a teen with a gun, start an altercation, shoot a kid dead, and then claim self defense. That is a system that is terribly screwed up, IMO.

Then you have GZ's brother RZ Jr on a twitter rant, who blames the blow up of the situation on racism, NOT GZ NOT BEING ARRESTED for 44-45 days! and then uses the the same bs again, IMO

Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr
@FoxNews If membs of Congress who slandered GZdon't apologize on their own..I'll run myself & see2it theyR sanctioned4 race-baiting tactics

Really, RZ, SHUT UP ALREADY!!! You just make your brother LOOK even MORE guilty, IMO!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:49 pm

Oops! Sorry, Double Posted!
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:51 pm

justanopinion wrote:off topic... well sort of.... stumbled across this and thought it was worth consideration ... depending on where you stand/sit who this person is changes...


Wow! Pretty Wild, IMO!!! drunken
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by KimmyK on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:09 am

art tart wrote:

GZ did nothing illegal, it was not illegal for GZ to get out of his truck. TM could have easily introduced himself, and a conversation could have been started, TM chose to give a beat down, NOT engage in conversation. That is assault. You seem to want to blame GZ for everything, it is inexcusable TM beat GZ, who does that? Whether you accept it or not, it will be explained in court, it is assault. TM could have easily started a conversation which you blame GZ for not doing. I will be interested to see what excuses the State makes for the beating, BDLR has admitted to the altercation.

It doesn't matter how badly you think GZ was beaten or not beaten, GZ didn't have to lose consciousness in the altercation or continue to be beaten. That is a fact. GZ couldn't retreat, he was flat of his back having his head pounded.

The jury hopefully decides the case on the evidence presented, weighs the value of the evidence and makes a decision. The truth of my statements and opinions are made from the evidence, I nor anyone else can control or predict anything the jury decides.

With all due respect Art,
It seems you are only looking at this from the standpoint ONLY as TM assaulted GZ.
What about TM's RIGHT to Stand HIS Ground?

How does GZ go looking for an address (which are clearly visible from where he WAS) and NOT get one?
That IMO, was a CYA statement from GZ, because he knew he was wrong following Trayvon.
IF GZ was attacked going BACK to his vehicle as he stated, how did he get 40 feet down from the T?

Yes, it was NOT illegal for GZ to exit his vehicle, but if understand the law correctly, that rule changes IF he was following with a firearm...
You can't take a gun to a fist fight, start losing, then bring out your gun and shoot, IMO.

See article on SYG Law
Snipped-
George Zimmerman Unprotected By Self-Defense Law in Trayvon Martin Killing, Florida Lawmakers Say

"This law is for innocent, law-abiding citizens who are under attack by a perpetrator," Baxley told The Huffington Post. "Anyone who is out pursuing and confronting people is not protected by this statute."

"Being the neighborhood watch guy doesn't give you carte blanche to stop and question every guy you see walking down the street," Caranna said.
"You cannot provoke the confrontation. You cannot be the instigator and then claim 'stand your ground,' Sundby said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-_n_1371171.html

Hopefully, the evidence will prove that GZ's many inconsistent stories cannot possibly be the TRUTH, IMO
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by colsnipe on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:05 am

Freckles wrote:I hope you are not suggesting everyone should have stayed inside that evening to avoid a potential confrontation with GZ?

TM was not the burglar; TM simply walked in what GZ had claimed to be HIS turf and GZ did not recognize the right of TM to be there.
Why else was GZ so suspicious? Because GZ did NOT respect TM's right to be in the community.

Why else did GZ decide to leave the safety of his vehicle to FOLLOW TM? IF the situation was so severe GZ needed to call NEN, why would he not stay in the car?

NEN never asked GZ to obtain an address for them despite what GZ has stated. Did you hear NEN tell GZ they would not dispatch without an addy? Did GZ call NEN to give them an addy? Why not? Is it because that was NOT the purpose of GZ being outside the car?

Why else was GZ cruising about with a loaded gun?
Was GZ afraid the meatman at Target was going to attack him with a cleaver? No. It was NOT because of Target.

I seriously doubt GZ would have walked down a dark sidewalk at night to get an address! That is so impossible to believe. And GZ would not have walked anywhere in the dark without his gun. He has already told everyone just how paranoid he was living there; after all, he bought the gun and started NW BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, right? That is why he was carrying the gun. He wasn't carrying because of wanting to bag some rabbit; he wasn't carrying because of reports of bog snakes; he wasn't carrying because of rabid skunks. No. GZ stated he bought the gun because he was concerned with HOME BURGLARIES and GZ wanted to be prepared against home invasion. (Gun would not do him any good if a burglary took place and he was not present so I am calling this a home invasion.)

So just why did an armed GZ decide to leave the safety of the car and take a rainy night stroll down a sidewalk into the dark? IMO, GZ was WANTING to "prove" himself to the SPD and "worthy" of hire by them.

GZ lacks the mentality to be a peace officer.
It takes more than a gun to be a responsible member of law enforcement.
A trigger finger doesn't work and a rash judgment won't qualify.

Keep in mind Freckles, according to some of the reports that i recall, he bought the gun because a dog had threatened him.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by colsnipe on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:10 am

Kimmy K, you said it correct. In every state that has a SYG law, they all state the user of SYG cannot perpetuate the situation. Simply said, if GZ was told not to follow TM and he did with a firearm, then SYG does not apply. IF GZ had the firearm holstered and TM did double back like Art believes, than only when the situation escalates to life threatening acts does GZ have a legal right to use SYG.
Now, if GZ was truly afraid for his life, why did he get out of his vehicle to pursue?
why did GZ if afraid, and truly believed that TM had a gun-like he stated in the NEN call, leave the safety of his vehicle and end the call with NEN?
Would be easier to dispatch EMS/PD/SD/LEO if the dispatch heard a fight or had reason to believe that GZ's life was in danger?

According to my conversations with LEOs in my area, the proper use & deployment of SYG is to meet force with force. (Sorry can't provide link) In other words,
  • pursue-lose SYG
    Fist-Fist
    Knife-Knife
    Fist-Gun if other lives are in DIRECT danger
    Knife-Gun if other lives are in DIRECT danger
    Gun-Gun
    Stay-SYG applies
    Retreat with in reason(eg:large crowd in a mall. retreat impossible; in a vehicle; with family)-SYG applies.

but the KEY is force must be met with equal or lesser force if SYG is to apply.

Now, i know i stated fist-gun if other lives are in DIRECT danger; if your life is in danger you must show that it was in direct danger, typically by showing defensive injuries directly attributed to the perp. merely having injuries usually does not exempt you from persecution of the law.

Lets break this out for clarity.
If a person is at an 7/11 and the perp walks in and shakes his fist at the clerk, and shouting i will kill you, their life is not in danger. It must escalate to action

If a person is at an 7/11 and the perp walks in and proceeds to start beating the clerk stating i will kill you, than the force requirement has been met.

If a person is at an 7/11 and the perp walks in and just waves a knife at the clerk, and stating i will kill you, their life is in danger, but the force requirement has not been met.

If a person is at an 7/11 and the perp walks in, jumps the counter, starts stabbing the clerk, stating i will kill you... obviously force requirement has been met.

If a person is at an 7/11 and the perp walks in; waves a gun or points it at a clerk, customer...than force has been met.

But keep in mind, that if you are in the store with a CCW, and you see a perp walkin with a knife, at a distance of about 15 feet, he can 9 times out of 10, close the distance @ a run with the knife and stab you at least once prior to you getting your gun out of its holster.
__________________________
Jail Now before you start wondering about the SYG; you have to look at it through the eyes of a LEO/Judge/DA/Jury.
Obvious SYG/Self-defense, can still be brought under question regarding how much force was required to defuse the situation. Jail

Sorry for the long post, Kimmy K, but it needed explaining and the explanation of force was provided by multiple LEOs i have known.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:22 am

colsnipe:

GZ is not using SYG as a defense, he is using "self defense" which is different. It is a "SYG" hearing. GZ had absolutely no way to retreat from having his head beaten against the ground. I consider the opinions of Criminal Defense Attorney's, especially many that practice law in Fla. to be of more importance that LE opinions personally, LEO's are not attorney's nor or they qualified to practice law although they could give a layman opinion, Jeralyn, a Criminal Defense Attorney in Colorado owns an excellent, no nonsense site called "Talk Left." Richard Hornsby, Criminal Defense Attorney in Orlando just did an interview last weekend on this case and predicts an acquittal stating GZ had a right to defend himself.

KZ shared this previously, it explains WHY the separation of the GZ/TM is important, and while GZ stopped following TM, TM chose to attack. Just something for you to consider.

(kindly snipped)

KZ shared:

It appears to me from all I've read that TM did in fact "get away" from GZ initially (far away, relative to a fist fight, and out of sight), but decided to double back and inflict a surprise physical attack on the strange guy he thought was following him. That isn't someone who was fearful, imo. To me, that is someone who was pissed off and confident he could "handle" the follower (ie, teach him a lesson with a beatdown). Add to the evidence that TM was seen on top of GZ, and even more it appears to me that TM was the aggressor in the second "meeting".

Several months ago I felt GZ should be convicted of manslaughter. But as more evidence has come out, I'm not convinced manslaughter is correct. More and more I'm starting to think he should be found not guilty, or have charges dismissed.

Edited to add: I also think the strong factual evidence of the media campaign against him, the NBC editing of the NEN call, the deception with the pictures, Dee Dee's age, the racial epithet that wasn't, and the nefarious actions of the "handlers" and various other groups hell bent on framing him as a racist is going to be a huge basket of evidence at trial. And it will not make the state's case look better or stronger, imo.

But who knows? Cases are won and lost in jury selection. Depends on how voir dire goes.

I think the whole situation is a terrible tragedy. But I do think TM was the aggressor in the second meeting. And sadly, that lead to him getting shot. I do think that if TM had never doubled back and attacked GZ, TM would still be alive. I don't believe GZ would have "hunted him down and shot him", as many have opined. He shot him because TM was beating the crap out of him, and I think he was sincerely afraid for his life at that point.

No matter how it all turns out, one life is lost, and the other is ruined. I don't think GZ could ever rebuild his life to any degree of comfort, even if he is found NG. He will always be a target for potential murder-- whether in prison, or in civilian life.

I want to make it clear I am no GZ fan. I think he's an idiot, frankly. I don't think he handled the situation well at all from the beginning. But I don't think he committed murder of any kind.

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:33 am

KimmyK -

in reference to your comment @ KimmyK Today at 12:09 am.

Respectfully, this article you are referencing is dating 3/21/12, an old article BEFORE much of the evidence was even released in the case, the article is nearly 10 months old.

Just as many thought this was a racially motivated case in March 2012 because the public believed the Handler's/Crump, the FBI said there is no evidence it is a racially motivated case, but many that haven't followed the case/evidence still think it is. The point being, many opinions were formed early in the case DESPITE all the evidence that has since been released.


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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Post by Freckles on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:45 am

colsnipe wrote:
Freckles wrote:I hope you are not suggesting everyone should have stayed inside that evening to avoid a potential confrontation with GZ?

TM was not the burglar; TM simply walked in what GZ had claimed to be HIS turf and GZ did not recognize the right of TM to be there.
Why else was GZ so suspicious? Because GZ did NOT respect TM's right to be in the community.

Why else did GZ decide to leave the safety of his vehicle to FOLLOW TM? IF the situation was so severe GZ needed to call NEN, why would he not stay in the car?

NEN never asked GZ to obtain an address for them despite what GZ has stated. Did you hear NEN tell GZ they would not dispatch without an addy? Did GZ call NEN to give them an addy? Why not? Is it because that was NOT the purpose of GZ being outside the car?

Why else was GZ cruising about with a loaded gun?
Was GZ afraid the meatman at Target was going to attack him with a cleaver? No. It was NOT because of Target.

I seriously doubt GZ would have walked down a dark sidewalk at night to get an address! That is so impossible to believe. And GZ would not have walked anywhere in the dark without his gun. He has already told everyone just how paranoid he was living there; after all, he bought the gun and started NW BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, right? That is why he was carrying the gun. He wasn't carrying because of wanting to bag some rabbit; he wasn't carrying because of reports of bog snakes; he wasn't carrying because of rabid skunks. No. GZ stated he bought the gun because he was concerned with HOME BURGLARIES and GZ wanted to be prepared against home invasion. (Gun would not do him any good if a burglary took place and he was not present so I am calling this a home invasion.)

So just why did an armed GZ decide to leave the safety of the car and take a rainy night stroll down a sidewalk into the dark? IMO, GZ was WANTING to "prove" himself to the SPD and "worthy" of hire by them.

GZ lacks the mentality to be a peace officer.
It takes more than a gun to be a responsible member of law enforcement.
A trigger finger doesn't work and a rash judgment won't qualify.

Keep in mind Freckles, according to some of the reports that i recall, he bought the gun because a dog had threatened him.
BBM Excellent point! Thank you for reminding me of the dog!!! LOL At the same time, IIRC, GZ and SZ had purchased guns prior to the dog event. I may be wrong in that, however. Besides, following the dog "threat" GZ acquired at least one dog of his own to accompany him on his walks. (I mention this at dog-dog would be equal force for SYG. Then there would not have been a need for buying the guns unless the dog was toting one itself! Watch out for those sleeping dogs !) Razz
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